Thought Koodo was a no-brainer? I smell Telus.

[alltherage]

Yeah... I_H8_Crawford's right.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

If you don't mind me asking, what is your plan like and how much do you pay? I'm almost up with Telus and i'm trying to see what 'goodies' I can get with my plan

I pay a whopping $0 for unlimited calling....

(I work for one of the cellular companies)

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

You lay out your plans that would make a cell phone provider be able to crush the big three in Canada.

It's probably doable, but why would anyone want to invest a huge of money to make zero "economic profits" (i.e. create a competitive market)? Most likely, anyone who tried would realize that they'd be better off simply claiming a slice of the oligopolistic pie and making better than normal profits off of monopolistic pricing.

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by SebC

It's probably doable, but why would anyone want to invest a huge of money to make zero "economic profits" (i.e. create a competitive market)? Most likely, anyone who tried would realize that they'd be better off simply claiming a slice of the oligopolistic pie and making better than normal profits off of monopolistic pricing.

That's why I am interested to see what comes from the bandwidth auction that was held.

A lot of people I talk to expect a new company to come in (i.e. Verizon) and bring in crazy plans that you see in the US right now, but my first question to all of those people is "Why would they do that? They can jack customers just like every other company does in one way or another, why would they GIVE UP profit?"

The only answer I get is "so they can have customers!" to which I promptly reply "You're telling me that they won't get any of the customers in Canada who will change just for the sake of getting away from the Big 3?"

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

I pay a whopping $0 for unlimited calling....

Best plan ever! I got me one of them too

Device or phone?

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

That's why I am interested to see what comes from the bandwidth auction that was held.

A lot of people I talk to expect a new company to come in (i.e. Verizon) and bring in crazy plans that you see in the US right now, but my first question to all of those people is "Why would they do that? They can jack customers just like every other company does in one way or another, why would they GIVE UP profit?"

The only answer I get is "so they can have customers!" to which I promptly reply "You're telling me that they won't get any of the customers in Canada who will change just for the sake of getting away from the Big 3?"

I think the same. When a new company comes in they are going to be like Bell coming to the West, basically give away plans and phones to get people to sign up with their company and then just fall into the same mold.

Anyone remember when Bell was giving away a plan with 700 mins, unlimited nights and weekends @ 6 for $7.45/month? You had to pay the SAF/911 and that was it as long as you brought in a current bill and rogers/fido phone. Plus they gave you the top of the line phone they had at the time.

I guess we will find out soon with the auction though. However if Verizon/Vodafone come here I will be jumping ship so quickly to get a job there, the pay will be ridiculous to start!

[arsenal]

they would do what every other company does:
Provide low cost high value plans to gain market share, and take an initial hit in revenue. Then slowly phase out the low cost high value plans for profit making plans.

[Kipper3256]

Frig i got koodo on July 2nd.... hopefully i can keep my current deal without them raising the price up. Current deal: 100 day time mins, unlimited evenings+ weekends after 7, unlimited text, caller id, voice mail all for $30 + tax.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Also about to change, subscribers of "Pay as you Go" type plans will soon be charged for all incoming text messages. Incoming messages are currently free for those who do not subscribe to a monthly plan. That's gonna be chaos if you piss some one off who has your phone number.

[Shawnski]

...

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Way to jump in on a topic you know jack shyte about.

Hey, you can play too.

Here is some background to help you out.

Cantel and Mobility Canada (the telcos) started the ball rolling. Both groups invested heavily in expansion during the early gravy years. Phones were sold for four figures (FORGET free... larf... that wasn't until 1995). I once sold a USED Motorola flip phone for four... thousand... dollars.

AGT Cellular was never dictated to by the government AGT landline side. They were a rogue body of a few dozen folk in the mid 80s that evolved in a completely different way from the main telco side. The City of Edmonton had their own telco (EdTel), which was determined to be in everyones best interest if AGT acquired them.

By the mid 90s, pricing on handsets had dropped to the point where providers could eat the cost of them just to get subscribers onto the network. At Christmas time in 1995, the Motorola flip phone (555) had dropped in price from $240 to free due to the fierce price wars between Mobility Canada and Cantel. Ever since then, most people have not valued the actual cost of the hardware. Cheap cordless phones cost way more than cells.

At that same time, the president of AGT Cellular, Harry Truderung, was driving each and every one of us to create the highest quality company we could. (And in 1998, TELUS Mobility did in fact get awarded the Canada Award of Excellence for Quality, over AMEX for one.) He saw the need to drive cellular coverage into the north. Operation "Bigfoot" was launched, and it blew Cantel right out the window. Bigfoot took the previous Edmonton/Calgary coverage corridor and expanded it massively and quickly in the shape of a foot on the Alberta map.

Not long after, AGT was sold off by the government. TELUS was born. As a whole, it had some adjusting to do, but the cellular side was so independent already, they took it in stride and ran with it (see the previous not on the TQ award from 1998).

AWESOME company to work for.

Deregulation came into the telco landscape in Canada. Mobility Canada was "broken up". TELUS and BCTel then amalgamated as a "merger of equals". Harry was still the boss at that time though. And they tried to buy Clearnet, but something happened (my guess is that the Clearnet brass wanted to run the show, more on this later).

Now the EdTel merger introduced more... militant... union people into the Mobility fold. But that was nothing compared to the introduction of the BCTel people.

Now you have a different landscape. LOTS of problems developed trying to meld many different agreements that had evolved over time. Ugly.

Anyhoo, Harry and the CEO of TELUS moved on. Darren Entwhistle became the CEO. In his wisdom, he did orchestrate the purchase of Clearnet (at the time the 3rd largest player), but in doing so, he annointed the President (George Cope) AND the Vice President (Wade Oosterman) as the number one and two people in the new TELUS Mobility. At the time, Clearnet was billions in debt (cough, hello on starting up a new cell provider...) yet the two of them became the face of the new company.

MAJOR MISTAKE.

For everyone that thought TELUS Mobility was this goverment style company that was red tape constricted... wow... did my eyes get opened. It was the EXACT opposite. It was the Clearnet people that were out to lunch. The downhill slide has yet to stop. I left Mobility in 2001 as I could no longer stand their BS.

Now, where the hell was I? Oh yeah. If you want to start a cell company that can deal with the big 3, AND HAVE SOME MAGICAL GAMEPLAN to thwart their billions in previous investments... just say so. I am all ears.

Great analysis, only thing that I would add would be from an outsider's point of view.

In order to get brand recognition you'll have to have national coverage or at least in the major areas. No one wants a cell phone they can't used on the Trans-Canada, regardless of where they're at in the country. If you get a Canadian cell phone, you expect Canadian coverage.

Here's the problem:

According to Wikipedia Canada has some problematic figures:

Area - Total 9,984,670 km² (2nd)
3,854,085 sq mi




Population Density 3.2/km² (219th)
8.3/sq mi

How cost effective will it be to built a viable network with the above figures?

And as Shawnski correctly points out, you're starting your company with HUGE up front fixed costs, then giving away your handsets for free, while providing cheap low cost price plans.

Worlds Second Largest Country + Lowest Population Density + Huge Start Up Costs + Free Hardware + Low Rate Plans = Bankrupt Really Quickly.

These companies know where the money's at, it's in charging you for your services. At $7 for caller ID, and $10 for a couple thousand SMS messages the cost of your bill might nearly double, but they're services people are willing to pay for, and it's the dollar here dollar that that makes Ted Rogers one of the riches Canadians.

I whole heartedly believe that if the majority of people are willing to pay $5/month for unlimited texting, why not add picture messaging at little marginal cost (actually I'd assume the marginal cost would be zero on that feature, as it would be a handset feature and there'd be more than enough room on the nextwork to handle the additional few more MB per message) and doubling the price. If you're still paying for it, your text messaging income instantaniously doubles (all else being equal - if you lose less than half the customers you're still making more money).

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Way to jump in on a topic you know jack shyte about.

Hey, you can play too.

Here is some background to help you out.

... snip ...

Now, where the hell was I? Oh yeah. If you want to start a cell company that can deal with the big 3, AND HAVE SOME MAGICAL GAMEPLAN to thwart their billions in previous investments... just say so. I am all ears.

So what you're telling me is that even half-assed people can create a profitable cell phone company. Imagine what people with full asses could do!

[Shawnski]

...

[Vansmack]

How regulated is the telecom industry in the united states? I have a feeling it is much less regulated than the canadian industry. Not sure if this was newsworthy enough for most of you, but in May the federal court of appeal overturned a federal court decision that essentially cost the telecoms $1-billion.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/Business
I have a feeling they are now trying to recover these perceived losses they only way they can, charging the end-user more.

[Shawnski]

...

[HOOT]

Television, radio, cellular and landlines are all telecom and do effect each other directly.

[Shawnski]

...

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Another rumour is that Bell is about to be purchased by Telus... but that's definitely just a rumour for now I think.

Completely untrue. BCE was just bought and privatized by group including the Ontario Teacher's Pension Board.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

I disagree. Telecom deals with telephony services. Only in recent years have the telcos started to broadcast TV. Some still haven't. And if they do, it is in a different division of the company, perhaps even a separate company all together. Even within a huge company like Rogers, there are independent divisions for cable and wireless. Having a judgement impact the cable side doesn't mean the wireless side is going to raise its rates.

And as these are all regulated by the CRTC, I believe you will find they are not allowed to cross subsidize anyway.

I don't believe that, but it could be true. I have no proof either way.

However when I look at lets say Bell(BCE). If Bell ExpressVu has a judgement against them that effects BCE as a whole, so if they can't make it up through ExpressVu because of regulations, then maybe they look at Bell Mobility to help cushion the ExpressVu loss to keep BCE in better standing.