Buying a TV & EDTV vs. HDTV

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

-Only the really really expensive LCD tv's have a fast enough pixel refresh rate to make regular cable not all cloudy

That is a lie right there. Cheap or expensive, all LCDs refresh at 60Hz.

The difference is the circuitry they use to expand the SD picture onto more pixels. Better algoritms = better circuitry = better picture. Those higher end chips that do the work cost a little more and are found in the higher end HDTVs.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

That is a lie right there. Cheap or expensive, all LCDs refresh at 60Hz.

The difference is the circuitry they use to expand the SD picture onto more pixels. Better algoritms = better circuitry = better picture. Those higher end chips that do the work cost a little more and are found in the higher end HDTVs.

The response time can vary.

Moving pictures on a CRT TV do not exhibit any sort of "ghosting" because the CRT's phosphor, charged by the strike of electrons, emits most of the light in a very short time, under 1 ms, compared with the refresh period of e.g. 20 ms (for 50 fps video). In LCDs, each pixel emits light of set intensity for a full period of 20 ms (in this example), plus the time it takes for it to switch to the next state, typically 12 to 25 ms.
The second time (called the "response time") can be shortened by the panel design (for black-to-white transitions), and by using the technique called overdriving (for black-to-gray and gray-to-gray transitions); however this only can go down to as short as the refresh period.
This is usually enough for watching film-based material, where the refresh period is so long (1/24 s, or 41.(6) ms), and jitter is so strong on moving objects, that film producers actually almost always try to keep object of interest immobile in the film's frame.
Video material, shot at 50 or 60 frames a second, actually tries to capture the motion. When the eye of a viewer tracks a moving object in video, it doesn't jump to its next predicted position on the screen with every refresh cycle, but it moves smoothly; thus the TV must display the moving object in "correct" places for as long as possible, and erase it from outdated places as quickly as possible.
Although ghosting was a problem when LCD TVs were newer, the manufacturers have been able to shorten response time to 4ms on many computer monitors and around an average of 8 ms for TVs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_...lay_television

[Bobblehead]

Response time <> refresh rate

There are also conflicting ways of measuring response rate
link

[Vulcan]

The way I look at it EDTV is obsolete. Even ordinary 1080i and 720p HDTV is obsolete. The newest LCD TV's are 1080p and are getting cheaper and bigger everyday. Their response times are going down too. I don't think they are even making EDTVs anymore and the salesmen are trying to get rid of them. Whatever you buy will be passe next year, do your research[read reviews], look for the best picture you can find in your price range [try to check out the picture in HD and SD] and bargain hard with the salesmen and check out the stores return policy.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

The way I look at it EDTV is obsolete. Even ordinary 1080i and 720p HDTV is obsolete. The newest LCD TV's are 1080p and are getting cheaper and bigger everyday. Their response times are going down too. I don't think they are even making EDTVs anymore and the salesmen are trying to get rid of them. Whatever you buy will be passe next year, do your research[read reviews], look for the best picture you can find in your price range [try to check out the picture in HD and SD] and bargain hard with the salesmen and check out the stores return policy.

LCD's are, buy their nature, progressive. Now whether or not they accept a progressive signal or not, that is changing, but all LCD's display an image progressively.

And I'm not sure you are going to see broadcast TV, Satellite TV or Digital Cable offering 1080p simply because of the amount of bandwidth that would be required.

1080p will be the domain of video games and HD movies, at least until better compression is developed. (but I would still like to get one)

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

-Plasma TV's are better for sports and regular tv, but poorer for games because the still images (lifemeter, scoreboard, etc.) can burn themselves into the screen after a number of hours.

Newer plasmas have loads of burn-in protection and I wouldn't worry about it.

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I got a good deal and got a great TV for $1500.
Good luck getting a plasma for that much.

True, but a plasma looks much better. I can easily tell the difference in picture quality watching a DLP vs watchint a Plasma. Thats why they cost more

Thats like saying you can get a perfectly good Honda instead of that Porsche.

[Frequitude]

Thank you very much for the informative replies. I tried to pick through them all to put together this post. These are my takes on what you guys have had to say.

Originally Posted by shane_c

I have a 42" Panasonic Plasma EDTV and am very happy with it. I have it connected to my Bell HD receiver. The picture on the HD channels is amazing.

Originally Posted by newts

I have a 42" Samsung EDTV plasma and have an HD box hooked up...can't even tell the difference from the HDTV counterpart.

This is good to hear. I’m looking for a better picture than a SDTV but can’t afford a plasma HDTV. And:

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Most people can't tell a difference between the HD and ED 42 inch panasonic plasma fed by hd signals side by side from over about 10 feet away.

This is what I noticed in the store.

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I'll repeat what I've said before. If there is a big difference in price, and price is a concern, going with an EDTV in the 42 inch range is not a bad choice, especially if you'll be sitting a good distance away. I'd pick a good 42 inch ED plasma like a Panasonic over a cheap hdtv plasma.

EDTV is not going to be obsolete. EDTV's do a good job of showing HDTV, just not in its full resolution.

Originally Posted by Reaper

For my wife and I, it was smarter to buy a name brand EDTV plasma as opposed to a Prima or Norcent or "Sorny" HDTV.

In essence, we are making the lower resolution of the EDTV work for us by magnifying fewer source flaws than an HDTV would.

The above quotes reflect my thoughts. I would rather buy a Panasonic EDTV than an off brand HDTV. Which it looks like Ken agrees with:

Originally Posted by ken0042

Buying a Panasonic plasma EDTV would be better IMHO as well than buying an off brand plasma HDTV. (Way better in fact.)

Originally Posted by Jimmy Krack Korn

Well said, and I agree completely. Another factor to consider is in my experience, EDTVs do a better job of displaying non-HD channels (which still is, and will be for quite some time the vast majority of channels) than a full HDTV.

This is very important to me. I still want to watch CSI before passing out, 24 every week, the news and random sitcoms. I want to have a good picture quality for this.

However, this is now my sticking point:

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I was trying to suggest was (once again IMHO) it is better to go with a Panasonic LCD or DLP Projection than to buy a Panasonic plasma EDTV.

I’m concerned about response time in an LCD that I can afford. I don’t want the ghosting effect, but don’t think I can afford an LCD with <4ms response time. Or can I? Is there a good LCD HDTV in my budget that will have good picture quality for regular SD feeds of sports, sitcoms, news, etc...but definitely sports?

Originally Posted by White Doors

I don't understand why anyone would get an EDTV vs a HDTV, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Price…if we’re talking both plasmas. And picture quality on a non-HD feed if we're talking LCD HDTV vs. plasma EDTV.



Sooooo, this leaves me at the decision of buying a plasma EDTV or a LCD HDTV. $1500-$1800 is my TV budget (exclusive of cables, etc). No ghosting on regular channels is far more important to me than the extra bit of picture quality I get on an HD feed by going from plasma EDTV to LCD HDTV. Just so long as there is a significant upgrade in an HD feed with an EDTV compared to a SDTV. You dig?

Being an engineer, put it this way:
"An SD feed on a plasma EDTV" - "An SD feed on a LCD HDTV"
must be greater than
"An HD feed on a LCD HDTV" - "An HD feed on a plasma EDTV"


BTW, the Panasonic TH42PD60 is the plasma EDTV I am looking at. It is item 73 in today's Soundsaround flier. I was also considering Samsung's SPS4223 EDTV. It is the top right item on the front page of today's Future Shop flier. I have been told that Panasonic is a better route than the Samsung, though the Samsung will be $300 cheaper. If anyone feels an LCD HDTV would be better based on the above criteria, please recommend one.




And finally,

Originally Posted by Jimmy Krack Korn

By the time ALL channels are HD, you'll likely be ready for another new TV anyway.

This is correct.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Sooooo, this leaves me at the decision of buying a plasma EDTV or a LCD HDTV. $1500-$1800 is my TV budget (exclusive of cables, etc). No ghosting on regular channels is far more important to me than the extra bit of picture quality I get on an HD feed by going from plasma EDTV to LCD HDTV. Just so long as there is a significant upgrade in an HD feed with an EDTV compared to a SDTV. You dig?

I don't believe there are any decent lcd flat panels in the size and price ranges you are looking at. I believe Ken was talking about lcd projection tvs. Personally, I'd pick a Panasonic ED plasma over a lcd/dlp projection hdtv in a second. I know others have different opinions.

Go with the Panasonic plasma if you can afford it. Pioneer and Panasonic are really the cream of the crop of the affordable plasmas, and Pioneers are too expensive.

[Vulcan]

One thing I'd like to add. CSI and most prime time viewing, including Jay Leno and sitcoms, are in HD. After gettin a HDTV and reciever, I don't watch much SD programming anymore unless I have to. Most football and baseball is in HD.The US tennis Open is in HD. The Canadian Golf Open is in HD. Hockey in Canada is lagging but an HDTV will future proof you.

[Frequitude]

I didn't know all those were in HD. Hmm. The number of them is only going up I guess.

Ok then, what are the cheaper models of LCD HDTV's out there with appropriately fast SD response times?

Also, I can go smaller. It doesn't have to be 42"!


On the complete other side, I can also go with no tv for now. I'm just moving into my new place and need to furnish it...figured this would be a good weekend to buy a tv. But I also need some furniture, washer & dryer, etc. Perhaps it is best to wait for boxing day for a sick tv?

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

LCD's are, buy their nature, progressive. Now whether or not they accept a progressive signal or not, that is changing, but all LCD's display an image progressively.

And I'm not sure you are going to see broadcast TV, Satellite TV or Digital Cable offering 1080p simply because of the amount of bandwidth that would be required.

1080p will be the domain of video games and HD movies, at least until better compression is developed. (but I would still like to get one)

Bobblehead is the king of the medium

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I believe Ken was talking about lcd projection tvs. Personally, I'd pick a Panasonic ED plasma over a lcd/dlp projection hdtv in a second. I know others have different opinions.

My main point was to get a flat screen LCD- but looking at how the Panny EDTV is priced it now puts that out of reach. Last time I looked (a month ago) they were around $2500, and that much coin gets you a decent LCD.

About what you said about different opinions; I do also believe that for myself a LCD projection would be a better option than an EDTV plasma.

However the bottom line is this:

Originally Posted by nfotiu

Most people can't tell a difference between the HD and ED 42 inch panasonic plasma fed by hd signals side by side from over about 10 feet away.

Originally Posted by Frequitude

This is what I noticed in the store.

It doesn't matter what anybody tells you; you are going to be the one looking at the TV. If you saw the two TVs and couldn't see a difference; then the Panny EDTV would be the one I'd get.

Whatever you do; make sure you do whatever it is that puts you into your "happy place."

[ken0042]

Oh, and for what it's worth..... this is the TV I own: Dell 37" LCD

I did win it; so the price was right. It often goes on sale for $1799. The only time I have ever noticed an issue that looked like a response time problem was watching a CBC CFL game. Watching football on TSN, NBC or CBS so far this year has been perfect.

My only complain is the size. 37" gives me a 31" 4X3 picture, and my old SDTV was a 41".

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

I didn't know all those were in HD. Hmm. The number of them is only going up I guess.

Ok then, what are the cheaper models of LCD HDTV's out there with appropriately fast SD response times?

Also, I can go smaller. It doesn't have to be 42"!


On the complete other side, I can also go with no tv for now. I'm just moving into my new place and need to furnish it...figured this would be a good weekend to buy a tv. But I also need some furniture, washer & dryer, etc. Perhaps it is best to wait for boxing day for a sick tv?

Seroiusly, the differnce in a show room and the differnce in size, go with Texas Instruments! The company has been around since before IBM and it is still doing cool stuff like DLP. DLP is MUCH better than 'LCD PROJECTION'. It is good and it is a reasonable price and if you get a Toshiba and/or a Samsung - these are the guys who make it, with TI's approval. It is an amazing tech and alot better than the 'LCD projections' that I have seen. AND on the plus side, Toshiba TV's are made to last, they always have been - that is their creed, and when you get involved with lamps and whatnot, that can only be a good thing..

Sony is WAY over-rated. I worked in the A/V industry for over 15 years. My passion is transistor out-put amps, but I can tell you that Toshiba will rarely stear you wrong.

my opinion - take for what you will.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by ken0042

My main point was to get a flat screen LCD- but looking at how the Panny EDTV is priced it now puts that out of reach. Last time I looked (a month ago) they were around $2500, and that much coin gets you a decent LCD.

About what you said about different opinions; I do also believe that for myself a LCD projection would be a better option than an EDTV plasma.

However the bottom line is this:




It doesn't matter what anybody tells you; you are going to be the one looking at the TV. If you saw the two TVs and couldn't see a difference; then the Panny EDTV would be the one I'd get.

Whatever you do; make sure you do whatever it is that puts you into your "happy place."

Panasonic is another good brand. Technics, is a good AMP too. Their Record Players and CD's used to be the industry standard as well...

[brownie]

Kinda green here in the Hdtv department.So if I buy a hdtv compatible tv,I need a hd box form shaw,is that it???Or do I have to pay more and subscribe to the hd channels or are some free?/Thanks for any info

[Frequitude]

I walked into Futureshop still a little uncertain. They had the 32" Sony WEGA's knocked another $100 down to $399. So I decided to just get that for now, and wisely spend the money on other things for my house, i.e. washer&dryer, table, chairs, kitchen stuff, etc.

I think it was a wise decision, and will refer back to this thread for boxing day.

Thanks for all the input everyone. Much appreciated.

[Vulcan]

Is this the CRT HD or is it SD?

Just to add that the way prices seem to be falling for LCDs and Plasmas, it's probably a good decision. I'm waiting, myself, before going for a big screen.

[ken0042]

You got a 32" Wega for $399?

Yeah, as much as I don't need another TV for myself- that is a smokin' deal.

Vulcan- I'm pretty sure at that price it would be the SD 4X3 version. Still, it gets him a good TV, and if he waits another 6 months he can probably buy a good HD plasma for more than $400 cheaper.

Very good choice Frequitude!

[Frequitude]

Yeah, it's the SD 4x3. I went in there still thinking I could walk out with the Panasonic EDTV. Then I saw the stack of 3 remaining WEGA's and they had a neon green cutout sign on them with "$100 off" crossed out, and then "$200 off, now $399" below (The Futureshop flier had it listed at $499). This immediately made my decision. I'll buy my Ferarri when I can afford to put premium gas (HD box, programming, cables, etc.) in it.