Racial profiling charges aimed at clubs

[JiriHrdina]

Muta, I disagree with your insurance stance.

Statistics show that young people are more dangerous on the road. So, if you are a young person you should pay more for insurance.

Its not discrimination at all. They are not saying you can't insurance. They are saying for someone of your age group to have insurance it will cost X. No different than other forms of insurance - health, life, etc.

[Muta]

Originally posted by JiriHrdina@Sep 4 2004, 03:38 PM
Muta, I disagree with your insurance stance.

Statistics show that young people are more dangerous on the road. So, if you are a young person you should pay more for insurance.

Its not discrimination at all. They are not saying you can't insurance. They are saying for someone of your age group to have insurance it will cost X. No different than other forms of insurance - health, life, etc.

Jiri, my point is that I'm not dangerous on the road. I've never had an accident or a ticket. Why should I have to pay the same insurance as the next 21-year old who's crashing his car left right and center and getting speeding tickets around every corner? Is that fair? No.

Perhaps statistics have shown that the amount of fights / stabbings / etc. at bars are performed by minority groups. I don't know. For all we know, the bars could be keeping statistics like these, and adjusting their policies accordingly.

[Pagal4321]

But you see Muta what's worse in this case, discrimination against age or discrimination against race?
I will obviously be biased in an argument like thise seeing how I am part of a minority group.
But if you go to a different city say Montreal, I'm sure you would not see the same HIGH standards needed to get into some places here.
Sure some places are probably denying minorities entry because they have had problems in the past, some times I don't blame them. But it's starting to just become ugly because some places are just turning people away because not of what has happend at their lubs what is happening at one down the street.
To me it doesn't seem right.

[Ozy_Flame]

Apparently there's a bar in Toronto where if you're not good-looking, you won't get in. That's even worse! I think it's called the Docks or the Port or something.

In any case, this debate is leading to one question - is there a better way to screen patrons who pose a threat? Some measures have been taken (such as the ID scan at the Den), but nothing is near perfect. Unfortunately, until our city bars have a better way of keeping troublemakers out, the bouncers will still have to be making on-the-spot judgement calls. I know it sucks, but you if your aware of how bars operate in this city and you choose to go to one, then that's the risk you take, be you any color.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally posted by Muta+Sep 4 2004, 04:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Muta @ Sep 4 2004, 04:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-JiriHrdina@Sep 4 2004, 03:38 PM
Muta, I disagree with your insurance stance.

Statistics show that young people are more dangerous on the road. So, if you are a young person you should pay more for insurance.

Its not discrimination at all. They are not saying you can't insurance. They are saying for someone of your age group to have insurance it will cost X. No different than other forms of insurance - health, life, etc.

Jiri, my point is that I'm not dangerous on the road. I've never had an accident or a ticket. Why should I have to pay the same insurance as the next 21-year old who's crashing his car left right and center and getting speeding tickets around every corner? Is that fair? No.

Perhaps statistics have shown that the amount of fights / stabbings / etc. at bars are performed by minority groups. I don't know. For all we know, the bars could be keeping statistics like these, and adjusting their policies accordingly. [/b][/quote]
Yes, but your are missing the entire point of insurance.

Basically what insurance does is spread the risk and associated costs across entire groups. You are part of a group (18-24 lets say) that costs the insurance providers more so that cost is going to be passed on to the members of that insurance class. Just like if you own a sports car it will go up. That's the basis for insurance. There is really no other way for it to work.

Moreover, make no mistake the kid that is crashing his car is in fact paying way more than you. If he can get insurance at all.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Cube can you name another way that they could do things.

Are you trying to deny that there are Asian gangs in the city of Calgary, because there are. If you are a bar owner what would you do in order to limit the violence which occurs at your bar. Sure it really sucks for those people but to consider the people who are in charge of that practice racist is pushing it.

I would think it being a private establishment they could deny entry to whomever you want, much like a house party where you could tell someone to f-off, I own the place.

[Pagal4321]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 4 2004, 07:36 PM
I would think it being a private establishment they could deny entry to whomever you want, much like a house party where you could tell someone to f-off, I own the place.

I understand your point of owners of private establishments denyin entry to whomever they please. But if I go to a club, abide by their dress code, and they deny me entry because some 'brown kids' started a fight and they don't want any trouble in their establishment, then what am I supposed to call that?

I sugest those ID scanners at every lub, once you start causing trouble, put it in the system. That seems to be the logical, yet expensive, way to make things better round here.

[Clarkey]

It all boils down to discretion and who they want to let into their club.

I have seen black and asian dudes in Cowboy's all the time and guess what all of them have looked like decent presentable people. Not rappers or all black clad trouble makers.

If you want to be accepted, act acceptable. Wear the proper clothes, convey the proper attitude and you'll probably have a better chance at getting in. I know a few people who are minorities and have never had a problem because they do this.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

No I am not saying that there are not racist overtones to this situation, however one must understand that there is a reason behind it. When there are people that look like gang-bangers (not in the dirty sense) and they are of a visable minority they are going to be denied entry, and that is a reasonable thing to do, if you don't there is an increased chance of trouble occuring in the bar in my humble opinion. This then leads to negative publicity and less business. Is it completely fair, well obviously no (nothing in this world is) but is it really racist, not really.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Sep 4 2004, 07:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Sep 4 2004, 07:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Cube can you name another way that they could do things.

Are you trying to deny that there are Asian gangs in the city of Calgary, because there are. If you are a bar owner what would you do in order to limit the violence which occurs at your bar. Sure it really sucks for those people but to consider the people who are in charge of that practice racist is pushing it.

I would think it being a private establishment they could deny entry to whomever you want, much like a house party where you could tell someone to f-off, I own the place.[/b]

Of course there are Asian gangs in Calgary, and I wouldn't want to mess with them myself. There are also drug dealers of all colours, wife-beaters, and jocks who just enjoy picking fights when they get drunk.

Regarding your statement that I've hilighted, you're partly right, based on the two definitions of "racism" below. I'm not saying that the bar owners are guilty of the first type of racism, but clearly what you're describing as acceptable (keeping out the troublemakers based on colour) is THE definition of racism.

<!--QuoteBegin-www.dictionary.com

Racism:
1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
[/quote]

What other way would I suggest to keep the peace in these establishments? Lots of possibilities... As someone mentioned, get the ID-scanning thing in place and reject anyone who's caused trouble before. Hire some trained security people to be inside the bar, rather than just the goons who hang around at the door. Use metal detectors. Reject anyone wearing gang paraphernalia. There are plenty of options.

There's a fundamental difference between a night club and a private home. While a club is private, it is under different rules because it is "customarily accessible to the public," or something like that. A dress code is a legitimate way to reject people because anyone can dress appropriately -- nobody can change their skin colour.

Re: Insurance

I completely agree that insurance is discriminatory...I argued that position for many years while I had a clean record yet was still being charged through the nose for my insurance. I think everybody should start out at a cheap rate, and then get severely penalized upon their first offense. There are some major differences between bars and insurance though:

-Everyone can get insurance, at some cost.
-Everybody gets older and reaches cheaper insurance; nobody changes race. Admittedly, insurance discrimination based on sex cannot be overcome, but at least males aren't a minority group.

----

Enough of that...I'm going to my friendly neighbourhood pub. Hope they let me in, cuz I'm a pretty shady looking character.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

So not allowing an individual in a bar is really discriminating against them, boy do you need to see the real world a little bit. Petty stuff like this really doesn't matter, worse discrimination occurs every single day, not just against people who are asian or black, but against people who are immigrants from Eastern European nations and what not.

Also of course there are a-holes of every colour, religion, and race (which fits into colour (spelt the proper way, by the way) i know). However you must look at where have a lot of the very public problems occured with regards to stabbings and what not, with gangs, and what is in the news right now, asian games. Hell just look in Edmonton to see that there is a problem with Asian gangs, and lets not kid ourselves there are problems. Do some people get slightly discriminated against due to these different gangs, well yes anyone could tell you that in my view, however are there reasons for this... damn straight. He is trying to run an establishment, and not to sound racist here (as I am quite sure it will be percieved) I would do the exact same thing.

So from your statement regarding the insurence, it is all right to discriminate as long as you are not discriminating against the minority group. So if someone wanted to say state no white people are allowed in a given bar it would be different and wouldn't be discrimination because it was the majority? hmmm that seems like flawed logic to me if I have ever heard flawed logic.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 4 2004, 10:20 PM
(which fits into colour (spelt the proper way, by the way) i know)

If you must correct the spelling of another poster it is a good idea to make sure you have spelled everything correctly when you do it.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by Reaper+Sep 5 2004, 04:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Reaper @ Sep 5 2004, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 4 2004, 10:20 PM
(which fits into colour (spelt the proper way, by the way) i know)

If you must correct the spelling of another poster it is a good idea to make sure you have spelled everything correctly when you do it. [/b][/quote]
I wasn't really trying to correct his grammer or spelling it is merely something that I do, I point it out all the time it was nothing against him in particular (or at least I assume it is a he). But learn how to properly use commas in a sentence.

That was a joke, I know it was weak and also suprising that I tried a joke that didn't involve coolers.

[Reaper]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Sep 4 2004, 10:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Sep 4 2004, 10:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

If you must correct the spelling of another poster it is a good idea to make sure you have spelled everything correctly when you do it.

I wasn't really trying to correct his grammer or spelling it is merely something that I do, I point it out all the time it was nothing against him in particular (or at least I assume it is a he). But learn how to properly use commas in a sentence.

That was a joke, I know it was weak and also suprising that I tried a joke that didn't involve coolers. [/b][/quote]
Please direct my attention to the instance in my previous post where I failed to make proper use of commas or other punctuation because I have not found one.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

You would like that wouldn't you.

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Sep 4 2004, 10:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Sep 4 2004, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So not allowing an individual in a bar is really discriminating against them, boy do you need to see the real world a little bit. Petty stuff like this really doesn't matter, worse discrimination occurs every single day, not just against people who are asian or black, but against people who are immigrants from Eastern European nations and what not.

Also of course there are a-holes of every colour, religion, and race (which fits into colour (spelt the proper way, by the way) i know). However you must look at where have a lot of the very public problems occured with regards to stabbings and what not, with gangs, and what is in the news right now, asian games. Hell just look in Edmonton to see that there is a problem with Asian gangs, and lets not kid ourselves there are problems. Do some people get slightly discriminated against due to these different gangs, well yes anyone could tell you that in my view, however are there reasons for this... damn straight. He is trying to run an establishment, and not to sound racist here (as I am quite sure it will be percieved) I would do the exact same thing.

So from your statement regarding the insurence, it is all right to discriminate as long as you are not discriminating against the minority group. So if someone wanted to say state no white people are allowed in a given bar it would be different and wouldn't be discrimination because it was the majority? hmmm that seems like flawed logic to me if I have ever heard flawed logic. [/b]

Once again, the "you need to see the real world" argument pops up. IMO, it doesn't matter what worse things are happening...the point of this particular debate is that society has deemed discrimination based on colour to be unacceptable at any level. My point of view isn't based on reality...it's based on that idealized world where race doesn't matter...the world that our anti-discrimination laws are designed to promote.

If you want to argue pragmatically, I won't argue the facts: All gangs are dangerous; in Calgary, most gangs are of the visible minority variety...therefore, by keeping out all minorities, you keep out most of these gangs as well. I won't agree with you that it's not racist, however, because (as I pointed out in my last post), that fits the dictionary definition (the second one) of racism.

You're arguing from the practical point of view of a bar owner...I'm trying to see it from the perspective of those who are told (implicitly) that they're not wanted because of their skin colour. There's no possible way that we're going to agree.

Again re: insurance...

I specifically stated that I don't agree with charging higher rates based on age and sex until the driver screws up, at which point he/she should pay through the nose. I merely pointed out two of the major differences between this and the actual topic we're discussing.

BTW: WTF is this about?

<!--QuoteBegin-Mustard
(which fits into colour (spelt the proper way, by the way) i know). [/quote]