[News] Jagr surpasses Gordie Howe for 3rd all time in points. 1851 points and counting.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Such an amazing achievement.

The sad thing is that with all the legends I grew up watching (Sakic, Selanne, Roy, Brodeur, Lidstrom, etc) the ones who are left (Jagr, Iginla, Thornton et al) will all soon be retired. Who's the next older''legend'' to take over? Iginla maybe? Thornton if he plays until he's 40? Who's the next player to be that true legend that will break some of the all-time records? I can think of Ovechkin and Crosby maybe if he stays healthy.

It's so neat to watch some of these guys break records that have stood for decades. But other then Ovechkin maybe breaking some of the goal records, I fear we'll be in a record-breaking ''drought'' once lots of these older guys retire, as I don't really see any of the new wave of superstars coming anywhere close to what these guys did.

2 years from now it's very possible that Jagr, Iginla, Datsyuk, Elias, Chara, Luongo, Doan and possibly Thornton, Sedin, Hossa and Zetterberg) will all have hung them up.

It does feel like there is a bit of a gap of 'legends' from 1981-1984.

Kronwall (1981)
Lundqvist, Gaborik (1982)
Keith, Spezza (1983)
Nash, Staal (1984)

Lundqvist and maybe Keith are the only one's that really feel like they belong with the later 70's names above. The rest feel more like "Doan's" (not that its anything to be ashamed of) and even then there's only a few of them.

It really picks up again in 85 with guys like Ovechkin, Getzlaf, Perry, Bergeron, Burns, Carter. '86 only really has Malkin, but there seems to be plenty of future 'legends' after that.

[curves2000]

One of the questions many fans have is the KHL and 2 lockout theory on his numbers but that is only a partial way of looking at it.

Many players including Messier, Gretz, Iginla, Sakic etc played through at least 1 or 2 lockouts. The question is if it wasn't for the 2005 lockout, would Messier have retired?? I am not sure.

I have also heard from several interviews with Jagr that the grind of the NHL season wore him down in the end. He was playing in NY, a massive media market and was making the big $$ which made him and the other players on the team major targets.

If you look at his numbers during his time they aren't much better than they are now. I think the KHL rejuvenated him as he has mentioned he got tired of playing in the KHL against lesser talent and "3000 person stadiums"

He did come back from the KHL with a lot of different workout methods and a new mindset and this has allowed him to play at a much higher level than anybody including himself probably expected.

This being said when comparing numbers for anybody who played in the 70's I really do think you need to take into consideration the WHA numbers and add them in to compare. When you do that players like Howe, Bobby Hull and even Gretzky have numbers that probably won't ever be touched by players today. I know the argument might be that the WHA wasn't the best league in the world but the truth of the matter is some serious talent played in that league and it was high-quality professional hockey.

The same argument can also be applied to the KHL numbers that someone like Jagr put up. In any event what Jagr has done and continues to do is so impressive for so many reasons. It's one thing to play the games and still maintain the "skill" but the behind the scenes stuff like the daily practices, the travel, the off-season training needed for someone his age, the injuries and daily maintenance/treatment. It takes a lot of love to do that day in and day out.

Congrats #68!

[Hockey_Ninja]

Mark's next. Congrats Jagr.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Such an amazing achievement.

The sad thing is that with all the legends I grew up watching (Sakic, Selanne, Roy, Brodeur, Lidstrom, etc) the ones who are left (Jagr, Iginla, Thornton et al) will all soon be retired. Who's the next older''legend'' to take over? Iginla maybe? Thornton if he plays until he's 40? Who's the next player to be that true legend that will break some of the all-time records? I can think of Ovechkin and Crosby maybe if he stays healthy.

It's so neat to watch some of these guys break records that have stood for decades. But other then Ovechkin maybe breaking some of the goal records, I fear we'll be in a record-breaking ''drought'' once lots of these older guys retire, as I don't really see any of the new wave of superstars coming anywhere close to what these guys did.

You might get to see a record this year that may not be broken for the next several decades - Braden Holtby getting 50 wins in a season. Brodeur came close. Kipprusoff came close. Nobody has done it yet, and maybe nobody ever will do it. If Holtby gets it (41 wins already, Caps have 16 games left) it would be quite the achievement.

As for Jagr - the guy is generational. There is no doubt about it. If he isn't generational, then I have no idea what that term means. In fact, he seems to be 'multi-generational' - guy looks like he can play another decade at times.

Out of all the players I started watching when I was younger, Jagr has always stood out to me as one of the more thrilling players who controls a game in so many ways. I can't wait until he pushes down Messier. I can't stand the Moose (even his nick is stupid).

[Tsawwassen]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

You might get to see a record this year that may not be broken for the next several decades - Braden Holtby getting 50 wins in a season. Brodeur came close. Kipprusoff came close. Nobody has done it yet, and maybe nobody ever will do it. If Holtby gets it (41 wins already, Caps have 16 games left) it would be quite the achievement.

Brodeur did indeed come close with 48, 45, 44, and 43 wins in various seasons. The thing is he had OT and the SO to get the number close to 50. Bernie Parent had 47 and 44 (Sawchuk too and did it twice) wins when games ended in a tie after 60 minutes. http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/most-wins-in-one-season-by-nhl-goalies.html

Oh yeah, Kipper had 45 wins.

[GirlySports]

surprised Dryden never got close, Habs hold the record for the best record in a season?

[habernac]

42 one year, 41 another. He had multiple years with double digits in ties (15, 13, 16)

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Tsawwassen

Brodeur did indeed come close with 48, 45, 44, and 43 wins in various seasons. The thing is he had OT and the SO to get the number close to 50. Bernie Parent had 47 and 44 (Sawchuk too and did it twice) wins when games ended in a tie after 60 minutes. http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/most-wins-in-one-season-by-nhl-goalies.html

Oh yeah, Kipper had 45 wins.

Despite the fact that there is OT & SO these days, I still think the 50 win achievement for Holtby would be absolutely incredible. The league has more parity than ever, so the Caps run this season as a whole is incredible in itself.

They are on pace for 61 wins They could come close to tying or breaking the single season win record set by the Wings.

[Table 5]

KHL years aside, one counter-factual that is interesting to think about is how many more points Jagr would've had if Mario Lemieux's career wasn't hampered with so many health issues. Jagr did quite well with Mario gone, but if Mario was healthy and played into the early 2000s, I can't imagine those two not tearing the NHL a new one for years.

Speaking of which, Mario missing so many games is an even bigger shame than Jagr when it comes to possible NHL "what ifs". Probably because I was too young to see Gretzky in his 80s prime, but to Mario is still the best player I've ever seen. A healthy Mario could've surpassed Gretzky in goals, and probably come within a reasonable distance in points.

In the end though, all NHL players have hurdles to jump over. You really need the perfect combination of talent, health, timing, and circumstance to make it to the upper echelon of NHL records.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Great achievement.

Imagine if he had spent KHL years and lockout active in the NHL

Gordie Howe spent some of the prime years of his career in the WHL. Bobby Hull even more. Even Gretzky spent a season there in which he probably would have scored another 100 points or so in the NHL. And what if Mario didn't get Hodgkins and retire?

All of them are remarkable for consistency and productivity over a long period. Never thought Jagr would be be know for that but here he is and still going strong. He deserves a lot of credit.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

2 years from now it's very possible that Jagr, Iginla, Datsyuk, Elias, Chara, Luongo, Doan and possibly Thornton, Sedin, Hossa and Zetterberg) will all have hung them up.

It does feel like there is a bit of a gap of 'legends' from 1981-1984.

Kronwall (1981)
Lundqvist, Gaborik (1982)
Keith, Spezza (1983)
Nash, Staal (1984)

Lundqvist and maybe Keith are the only one's that really feel like they belong with the later 70's names above. The rest feel more like "Doan's" (not that its anything to be ashamed of) and even then there's only a few of them.

It really picks up again in 85 with guys like Ovechkin, Getzlaf, Perry, Bergeron, Burns, Carter. '86 only really has Malkin, but there seems to be plenty of future 'legends' after that.

Does how you classify these players as legends vs young guys depend on your own personal age? I find myself holding the older guys in higher regard as I grew up watching them. Maybe its just compounded by the late 70 vs early/mid 80 birthdays difference in talent... I dunno.

[Finger Cookin]

Edit: nvm, point has been made by many others

[jayswin]

Just thought of something. Imagine if he hadn't spent time in the khl?

[Table 5]

Imagine if he played his entire career in the KHL.

[Locke]

Its a shame he went to the KHL. Did you guys know that?

Also he had to take time off from playing hockey during World War 1 and 2!

And hes bringing mullets back! That is one stat category where Jagr is the undisputed #1.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Locke

Also he had to take time off from playing hockey during World War 1 and 2!

Let's not be silly. Everybody knows Jagr played straight through World War II.

It was the Korean War when he had to take time off.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Let's not be silly. Everybody knows Jagr played straight through World War II.

It was the Korean War when he had to take time off.

Right! That was the one where he fought for the Communists because they paid him the most!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Such an amazing achievement.

The sad thing is that with all the legends I grew up watching (Sakic, Selanne, Roy, Brodeur, Lidstrom, etc) the ones who are left (Jagr, Iginla, Thornton et al) will all soon be retired. Who's the next older''legend'' to take over? Iginla maybe? Thornton if he plays until he's 40? Who's the next player to be that true legend that will break some of the all-time records? I can think of Ovechkin and Crosby maybe if he stays healthy.

It's so neat to watch some of these guys break records that have stood for decades. But other then Ovechkin maybe breaking some of the goal records, I fear we'll be in a record-breaking ''drought'' once lots of these older guys retire, as I don't really see any of the new wave of superstars coming anywhere close to what these guys did.

Unless the game opens up again, I don't see anyone getting a sniff at the 2000ish point level (which is where Jagr is close to right now. Jagr played through some very high scoring eras. Not 80s high scoring, but still much higher scoring than now.

[troutman]

You could do this for many players, but in Jagr's case TSN calculates how many points he might have if not for lock-outs and KHL:

http://www2.tsn.ca/bardown/Story.asp...+NHL&id=574712

353.6 extra points, or 2205 career points by March 8th, 2016.

[Enoch Root]

did they do the math for the seasons that Howe or Gretzky were in the WHA?