Israel lobbying countries to cut funding to Int'l Criminal Court

[FlamesAddiction]

Israel isn't alone in this. Several African countries have been doing the same thing in recent years (Kenya being the most vocal I think). When Thomas Lubanga was convicted, the costs of the whole process were reported to be around $900 million. Surely there has to be a better way. That money probably could have gone a lot further to develop war torn countries and bring about peace by fighting poverty.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Matata

Not true, in the past year I've gone from being pro-Isreal to anti-Isreal.

Isreal is a nexus point of international power structures that affect the entire planet. Discussing it should never be off the table.

But are the Palestinian and Israeli leaders going to be swayed as easily? It's nice that people are able to change their views, but as we go higher in the ranks of each side, the likelyhood of them changing their view gets smaller and smaller.

A guy who goes to church on Christmas and Easter is probably easily swayed away from Catholicsm, the Pope not so much.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by GGG

Before this becomes an Israeli Palestinian #### fest again does the ICC produce reasonable results or has in become like the UN human rights commission and filled with nations you wouldn't want evaluating human rights?

I think this is an interesting question. But to assess it properly, I would appreciate it if you could clarify one part. Which nations do you think are morally credible to evaluate human rights these days?

Not a joke.

For example, I know people were complaining about Libya being in the UN group. Fair enough, but then what about the US and its torture of innocents? Palestinian or Israeli authorities certainly don't have the moral standing. China? no. Russia? no.

In effect, what country has the moral standing to credibly evaluate human rights nowadays so that critics don't dismiss these international groups with prejudice?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I think this is an interesting question. But to assess it properly, I would appreciate it if you could clarify one part. Which nations do you think are morally credible to evaluate human rights these days?

Not a joke.

For example, I know people were complaining about Libya being in the UN group. Fair enough, but then what about the US and its torture of innocents? Palestinian or Israeli authorities certainly don't have the moral standing. China? no. Russia? no.

In effect, what country has the moral standing to credibly evaluate human rights nowadays so that critics don't dismiss these international groups with prejudice?

I think this is largely Israel's complaint with the whole process. They are expected to spend large resources constantly defending themselves to the UN while their accusers are, in many cases, much worse, and there is a plethora of "war crimes" going in without any attention from these same bodies.

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Please dont start arguing about Isreal-Palestine. Please stop. Or Isreal - anyone.

It gets so annoying.

Please, don't.

You can choose whether or not you want to participate in this thread.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

You can choose whether or not you want to participate in this thread.

I think his point is that these threads always devolve into the same bickering, and you can't actually discuss the relevant events that the thread was meant to discuss.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think this is largely Israel's complaint with the whole process. They are expected to spend large resources constantly defending themselves to the UN while their accusers are, in many cases, much worse, and there is a plethora of "war crimes" going in without any attention from these same bodies.

Can you name any countries that you believe have the moral authority to sit on these courts and render judgment?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Can you name any countries that you believe have the moral authority to sit on these courts and render judgment?

If we are persecuting Israel for what it's done, the list would be very small. If we are persecuting people for war crimes like genocide, then yes.

There are "war crimes" where you are debating whether Israel was within the situation that white phosphorus use is legal. Then there are war crimes where hundreds of thousands of civilians are killed by dictators. The ICC was clearly meant to have jurisdiction over the latter. It is not meant to police every armed struggle or territory dispute.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

If we are persecuting Israel for what it's done, the list would be very small. If we are persecuting people for war crimes like genocide, then yes.

There are "war crimes" where you are debating whether Israel was within the situation that white phosphorus use is legal. Then there are war crimes where hundreds of thousands of civilians are killed by dictators. The ICC was clearly meant to have jurisdiction over the latter. It is not meant to police every armed struggle or territory dispute.

I wasn't very clear. Forget Israel and this situation.

I'm just thinking in general, out loud. The world and each country is such a mess that I'm having a hard time naming any countries that I think have the moral currency to spend on these matters.

In the meantime, we'll just keep going along the might-makes-right path and watch people get trounced all over the world.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I wasn't very clear. Forget Israel and this situation.

I'm just thinking in general, out loud. The world and each country is such a mess that I'm having a hard time naming any countries that I think have the moral currency to spend on these matters.

In the meantime, we'll just keep going along the might-makes-right path and watch people get trounced all over the world.

The court was set up to deal with true and major war crimes, ex. Hitler. As bad as you want to make out countries like the USA, they have never killed civilians in those numbers. The vast majority of dead civilians in either of their recent wars were killed by Muslim militants. Obviously the US carries responsibility for destabilizing the countries. Even then, that's not what this court was for. It's to stop deliberate war crimes.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

The court was set up to deal with true and major war crimes, ex. Hitler. As bad as you want to make out countries like the USA, they have never killed civilians in those numbers. The vast majority of dead civilians in either of their recent wars were killed by Muslim militants. Obviously the US carries responsibility for destabilizing the countries. Even then, that's not what this court was for. It's to stop deliberate war crimes.

I'll just repeat my question out of curiosity: Can you name any countries that you believe have the moral authority to sit on these courts and render judgment?

If you don't want to answer it, please do just say so. I can take it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I'll just repeat my question out of curiosity: Can you name any countries that you believe have the moral authority to sit on these courts and render judgment?

If you don't want to answer it, please do just say so. I can take it.

I'll take a stab. Keeping in mind, I may not know enough about these countries' histories to say definitively, but nothing stands out. All of these countries have warts I'm sure.

Norway
Denmark
Sweden
Finland
Canada - This is the greatest country on Earth, it's science. We have our faults but there's arguably no better.
Germany (Yes, they gave us Nazis, but have been model world citizens since, it seems)
France
Australia


Basically, keep the "superpowers" out of it. A country's size or economic prowess has no bearing on it's ability to judge crimes against humanity. I'm sure China, US and Russia would all cry about it but someone here has to man up to being held accountable, and all of these countries that are ideologically (or really) at war with each other would need to agree to adhere to it without being decision makers. There's really no reason why they should need to be.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I'll just repeat my question out of curiosity: Can you name any countries that you believe have the moral authority to sit on these courts and render judgment?

If you don't want to answer it, please do just say so. I can take it.

Once again....


If the ICC is doing it's job: almost everybody

If the ICC is now going to be expanded to go after issues like the middle east conflict: nobody.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

No shock that you all sit back and ignore terrorist acts and wait for Israel to defend itself to complain.

Dont insult the intelligence of CP users. There are some smart people here..

The issue is since the UN plan of 1947 Israel has used terror to colonize Palestinian land and denied these people a lot of basic rights.

One nation is has the most technologically advanced and foreign funded military in the world, the other has a few home made rockets 90% of which dont even pose a threat due to how cheap the rockets are - and the fact Israel has the best missile defence system in the world.

IF nunavut was apart of another country - it would be the equivalent of Canada bombing their powows, killing men women and children - denying them their basic rights - over a few poison arrow attacks.

I dont agree with anyone bombing anyone. But the word terror last I checked means any acts intended to cause fear (terror) to achieve religious, political or ideological goals.

So that means the word terror should not be exclusive to Muslim extremists - but anyone who does the above.

IF there were a book on terror in the last 60 years... it would probably have at least a chapter written by the Israeli terror groups of which Benjamin Netenyahu was a member of in his younger days.

People are getting sick of Israel playing the victim when that is simply not the case. Give those people thier land back - at least to the 1947 UN plan - stop buldozing their homes and uprooting their trees and farms - allow them access to clean water - ability to move more than 1km without an Israeli check stop or being treated like crap.

I will leave this thread with some quotes - and pictures that I feel sum this issue up quite well.


Gaza (along with the West Bank and East Jerusalem) is occupied Palestinian territory under international law, determined by the vast majority of the world, as well as the highest court in the world, the UN’s International Court of Justice. Gaza cannot commit aggression against Israel, since Israel is in constant and continual commission of illegal aggression against Palestine by occupying it (illegally and sadistically blockading it and frequently committing terrorism against its civilians, including by targeting them with chemical weapons provided by US taxpayers

In 1948, the people who wanted to form a Jewish state carried out a massive terror and ethnic cleansing campaign against the occupants of Palestine, expelling about half of them (750,000) from their land and into concentrated areas (Gaza and West Bank). Israel has slowly continued colonizing even those areas, which were specifically reserved by the UN for Palestinians. Israel takes all the best land and resources, such as water. Here is a visualization of what has happened, and is currently happening with massive support from the West (IMAGE ABOVE - land map)


Palestinians have the right under international law to resist occupation, ethnic cleansing, colonization, aggression, and annexation. Miko Peled, son of an Israeli general, recently stated that if Israel doesn’t Like rockets, they should decolonize Palestine. Dr. Norman Finkelstein notes that “The Palestinians have the right to use arms to resist an occupation . However, the fact that morally and legally they have that right doesn’t mean that it’s the most prudent strategy. In my opinion, a national Palestinian leadership committed to mobilizing nonviolent resistance can defeat the Israeli occupation if those of us living abroad lend support to it.”





Get with the times Israel - its not the colonial age!

Asking the world to boycott the ICC is a joke. Whats next - rethinking the legal definition of a war crime?

Jail for the zionist scum who rain down white phosphorous on children as they sleep - and then make the headlines the next day playing the victim card. Hoping those who see the headlines dont know anything about middle east history or even the history of apartheid and colonialism.

Like I said - dont insult the intelligence of people on CP and around the world. People are becoming wise to the terrorist state of Israel and more and more are sympathetic to the Occupied Palestinian territories. Not those boming innocent jews - but those in an honest struggle for basic rights, freedom and self-determination.

[blankall]

^^^^^

Why don't you tell us how you really feel about the issue?

[WCW Nitro]

Come on, do people actually believe that Israel is opposed to the ICC all of a sudden because the members are not trustworthy? Please. Israel knows it committed war crimes and would be exposed.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Come on, do people actually believe that Israel is opposed to the ICC all of a sudden because the members are not trustworthy? Please. Israel knows it committed war crimes and would be exposed.

No.... Israel doesn't want to go through the hassle and bias the proceedings are likely to result in. What exactly would it expose? The ICC does not have the power to enforce anything against Israel. Every time Israel is involved in a military conflict every little thing they do is "exposed". And if you can't catch Israel doing something then Photoshop and Pallywood do the exposing.

[Manhattanboy]

#34. Incredible.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Come on, do people actually believe that Israel is opposed to the ICC all of a sudden because the members are not trustworthy? Please. Israel knows it committed war crimes and would be exposed.

Tell us what you really think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Pakistan

[HarryH93]

I can't believe people still continue to ignore the fact that Israel demolishes homes, kicks Palestinians off their own land, and takes away their source of income (agriculture) yet they think Palestinians don't have a right to fight back for what's theirs. Absolute bull####