Bon Jovi + Tortonto + NFL

[Magnum PEI]

Originally Posted by troutman

IIRC, Toronto is now the 4th largest city in North America.

And Bon Jovi just got a sell-out banner raised at ACC.

I've been hearing this a lot lately with the Rob Ford happenings.
Here it's listed as 8th, but it's really more like 10th if the SF Bay area and Washington-Baltimore are combined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

But it is the 4th largest municipality in NA. Just ahead of Chicago.

[bluejays]

I have to say, being a Torontonian and all, I don't see any hype anymore when the NFL is in town. It could strictly be because Toronto doesn't support teams not their own, but aside from the first time the Bills played games in Toronto, the city barely gets up for them any more than an average Jays game. Part of the problem is the tailgating enforcements when it comes to booze I'm sure, but it's a cheesy forced party every time they play a game here. Tickets were being given away like candy last time IIRC. I wonder how many NFL players have records and can't enter the country? So many logistic issues to iron out, but after witnessing how Torontonians lack interest after so much initial interest, I can't see how the NFL would survive here.

[TheDebaser]

This sounds like something out of a weird dream.

[Daradon]

Toronto could not support both. They can't even support the Argo's right now. And it's not because they 'can't', it's because they don't want to, they don't care. They already see themselves as an NFL town.

Argos would have to move elsewhere in Ontario, which I do think is very possible. I think the NFL eventually moves to Toronto, but I wouldn't bet on it happening real quick. Maybe in ten years.

I think part of the reason the Bills are doing worse there now than their first appearance is because of the ticket prices. I do think they'd be all over a Toronto team, or even a reasonably priced Bills team, for a while anyway.

Torontonians still go to other cities to watch NFL when they can. Same way they go watch the Leafs in Buffalo.

[Joborule]

Toronto wants an NFL team, that plays there all year. Not once a year, in a crappy matchup.

Once they get a team, and a NFL stadium, Argos are gonna be in tough, but I think they could still survive in the city. They get two months of football without NFL competition (three if you include preseason), and even when the NFL is going on, there's enough people in the metro that Argos should hopefully be able to pull +25,000.

They really need to get out of Rogers Centre though, and build a venue that's more appropriate for the amount of people they draw to games.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Joborule

They get two months of football without NFL competition (three if you include preseason), and even when the NFL is going on, there's enough people in the metro that Argos should hopefully be able to pull +25,000.

Just realized that Toronto getting an NFL could really encourage the CFL to move their season up a month or so to avoid as much cross over as possible. Would also help with the Grey Cup not being held in late November.

[Red John]

Considering how many Seahawks season ticket holders are actually Canadians in the lower mainland, it wouldn't be impossible to see two NFL teams in Canada eventually.

Calgary could eventually fit into that mold too as it's a corporate city that prefers major-league professional teams and would have no problem selling corporate luxury boxes and suites.

With how many younger generation NFL fans there are in Canada already it isn't inconceivable in the next 50 years.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Red John

Considering how many Seahawks season ticket holders are actually Canadians in the lower mainland, it wouldn't be impossible to see two NFL teams in Canada eventually.

Calgary could eventually fit into that mold too as it's a corporate city that prefers major-league professional teams and would have no problem selling corporate luxury boxes and suites.

With how many younger generation NFL fans there are in Canada already it isn't inconceivable in the next 50 years.

I'll raise you and say in 25 years at most we'll see 4 Canadian NFL teams. Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal.

[SebC]

Last I heard the NFL had very little interest in Canada. Has that changed?

[nik-]

It would all depend on the seat license costs. If it was at all reasonable, I would totally have a season ticket.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Red John

Considering how many Seahawks season ticket holders are actually Canadians in the lower mainland, it wouldn't be impossible to see two NFL teams in Canada eventually.

Calgary could eventually fit into that mold too as it's a corporate city that prefers major-league professional teams and would have no problem selling corporate luxury boxes and suites.

With how many younger generation NFL fans there are in Canada already it isn't inconceivable in the next 50 years.

I'm not sure the Seahawks would be happy about that. The "no-brainer" with Toronto/Buffalo is that no other owner is going to care that they are drawing from their territory (i.e. if the talk was Jacksonville moving to Toronto, the Bills would go apecrap).

[Red John]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I'm not sure the Seahawks would be happy about that. The "no-brainer" with Toronto/Buffalo is that no other owner is going to care that they are drawing from their territory (i.e. if the talk was Jacksonville moving to Toronto, the Bills would go apecrap).

This is true, but it would create a nice natural rivalry with the Seahawks and hopefully the rest of the northwestern states would step up and continue to support their team. Seahawks football is at an all-time high in terms of popularity right now and a SB appearance this year would help that.

You are correct that the Seahawks wouldn't let it happen without a fight though. With how many people live in the lower mainland there should be enough support to go around.

Montreal as mentioned could be a target, not sure what the appetite is for NFL in that area though as they do actually support the CIS and CFL a bit - might be a unique market to get into. It's also very European so that probably hurts things.

[calgaryrocks]

how much would the NFL really gain?
there could be issues with players going across the border. they probably already have most of the tv money they would get in Canada anyways, as those that are interested already watch. would Calgary sell more seats than green bay or jacksonville? Would we be able to attract top talent? would we get a share of the US tv pie (probably not)? would we have to pay for a new huge stadium?

[SebC]

I, for one, would be much more interested in the NFL if Calgary had a team, maybe even if Toronto had one.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Magnum PEI

I've been hearing this a lot lately with the Rob Ford happenings.
Here it's listed as 8th, but it's really more like 10th if the SF Bay area and Washington-Baltimore are combined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

But it is the 4th largest municipality in NA. Just ahead of Chicago.

Yeah, it depends where you stop counting. I wasn't including Mexico in NA. You could say Toronto extends from Oshawa to St. Catharines. What is the population of the Golden Horseshoe? Maybe even include out to Guelph, Waterloo and K-W.

Golden Horseshoe is 8,759,312:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_horseshoe

The population of the Greater Golden Horseshoe is 8.7 million residents as of the 2011 census.[1]

The region is projected to grow to 11.5 million people by 2031.[4] The definition of the Golden Horseshoe as an agglomerated urban area, that is combining Census Metropolitan Areas is similar to how population counts are tabulated for Combined statistical area, which are used in the USA to combine more than one metropolitan area, defined as an MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area), into a larger overall urbanized area. These metropolitan areas are intrinsically linked through inter-dependence of services, trade, transportation corridors, close proximity and other factors, in this context they can also be viewed as a single region. In terms of population, the Greater Horseshoe is the 5th most populous greater urbanized area in North America, just behind the Baltimore-DC-Northern Virginia CSA, as of 2011.

You can see why the NFL would be interested in this market. In fact, all of Canada could be a secondary market (as for the Blue Jays).

[Maccalus]

The biggest problem I would see is the fact that Canadian teams are horrible draws when they play American teams in the states, especially from a TV perspective. I don't see a team realistically relocating from an American city to a Canadian one, simply because the gains in TV dollars in Canada probably wouldn't offset the loss of TV dollars in the States. An expansion is possible, but only after the many hurdles to NFL in Toronto are bridged (NFL quality stadium, Territory infringements) and all other American markets are tapped.

I don't see the NFL coming Toronto for many years.

[Plett25]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I'll raise you and say in 25 years at most we'll see 4 Canadian NFL teams. Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Montreal.

You know that NFL owners don't actually contribute any money to stadium construction, right? And you know that there isn't a single NFL caliber stadium in Canada, right?

So you're betting that TOR, VAN, CGY and MTL will ALL build billion dollar NFL stadiums on the taxpayer's dime? Even Montreal, who built a billion dollar stadium before it was cool to do it? The Montreal, who just finished paying for their billion dollar white elephant? That Montreal?

[Barnes]

Big O needs a new roof so let's not close that file yet.

[GGG]

This story comes up every year at the grey cup. Until someone comes up with a billion dollars for the stadium and another billion for a team there is nothing to discuss.

That said Los Angeles still doesnt have a team,
London, although more logistically difficult, doesnt have a team and gets you new TV money.

The NFL is a TV league so unless you can increase te TV pie you arent getting an expansion team so in that regard Toronto is out. And until the NFL gets into LA with at least 2 teams relocation is out.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Plett25

You know that NFL owners don't actually contribute any money to stadium construction, right? And you know that there isn't a single NFL caliber stadium in Canada, right?

So you're betting that TOR, VAN, CGY and MTL will ALL build billion dollar NFL stadiums on the taxpayer's dime? Even Montreal, who built a billion dollar stadium before it was cool to do it? The Montreal, who just finished paying for their billion dollar white elephant? That Montreal?

25 years from now is a long time. The NFL is a juggernaut and become more and more relevant in Canada. Two decades from now, the demand could be there for NFL teams in Canada. Prospective owners will see this and get the stadium built, with or without government building it for them. (And stadium building landscape could be much different at that point as well)