The "Best Player Outside the NHL" Experiment

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

...To answer the original question, I think Brunner is a decent example, perhaps Fasth?

What about undrafted NA players? The OP mentioned Justin Schultz as an example of disappointment. What about Tim Thomas? Mark Giordano? Dustin Penner? Martin St. Louis?

[Poe969]

The best player not in the NHL is in the draft. Draft smart, that's the answer

[Ruttiger]

Brian Rafalski was tabbed as "that guy" before signing with NJ - he turned out alright.

But by and large, players are outside the NHL for a reason.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by strombad

what you think it's going to take before either A). Teams stop doing it or B). Teams stop heaving lofty expectations on these players.

Nothing.

Signing guys who are "the best not in the NHL" is a free lottory ticket... if it works then you got something of value if it doesn't then you lost nothing (not even a draft pick) but the meh-ish $$ of the contract that year.

As for the heaving expectations... if you've sot something you can sell to prospective customers why not sell it? I'm pretty sure no one out there said "Cervenka didn't work out I'm cancelling my season tickets!" but someone may go "I want to check out that new guy let's buy a ticket and check it out"

[Nabber]

There has to be a Gordon Bombay out there!!!

Viktor Fasth worked out pretty good for Anaheim, like others say you take a chance and hope they really adapt to the North America game but it does seem like it's a long shot.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think targeting these players is a great low-risk, potential high-reward strategy and I hope the Flames keep on trying. As pointed out by others, it can, and often does pay dividends.

The only thing that irritates me is when some fans expect instant results and frek out when they don't get them.

Tim Thomas was another one of those "best outside the NHL" players, and he ended up having a few really solid NHL seasons.

[Mister Yamoto]

Fasth and Hiller are one of the top tandems in the NHL and they are both undrafted Euros. So it is definitely worth taking a shot on a guy like Cervenka or a Karlson.

But to trade assets for Ramo when he wasn't even going to come over for two seasons was absurd. And don't forget that Jay Feaster was the only one labelling him the best player outside of the NHL.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Fasth and Hiller are one of the top tandems in the NHL and they are both undrafted Euros. So it is definitely worth taking a shot on a guy like Cervenka or a Karlson.

But to trade assets for Ramo when he wasn't even going to come over for two seasons was absurd. And don't forget that Jay Feaster was the only one labelling him the best player outside of the NHL.

It's not like he was the only piece in the deal.
Remains to be seen what of the 2nd pick, Ramo or Holland end up being the best piece.
I like the Cammy for Bork exchange at least.
The rest is completely up in the air.

[CSharp]

The "Best" player not playing in the NHL is probably, at best, an average to not NHL calibre type of player. The NHL has the best players from around the world playing in two countries in one continent. Ramo is gonna be a bust if he doesn't bust his arse by moving quicker in between the pipes. Once he goes down, he slow to get back up and move across the net for the second shot. Cervenka could've worked out if it was this season when the Flames are rebuilding, but he's a bit smallish for the NHL. So, if any team is gonna select the "Best" player not from the NHL, there better be a set of support cast on the team to prop up that special player or it's just gonna be an embarrassment.

[mustache ride]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The only thing that irritates me is when some fans expect instant results and frek out when they don't get them.

They expect results because that's what they are being sold by management!
-Best player not in the NHL
-Best two goalies not in the NHL
-This guy plays center
-We are so lucky to get the top players on our list every time

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What about undrafted NA players? The OP mentioned Justin Schultz as an example of disappointment. What about Tim Thomas? Mark Giordano? Dustin Penner? Martin St. Louis?

All of the players mentioned are meh with the exception of St. Louis. Bruins could've won it all with an average goalie. Gio was good the first season and half when he came back from Europe after holding out from the Flames and before he got hurt. He's still better than all of the D-men on the Flames after Regehr left, but he's really a number one line all-star D-man. Dustin Penner only shows up for the playoffs (if he even shows up). Justin Schultz was good in his first year with the Oilers, but where is he now (besides being on a really bad defensive team ) and where'd the team end up or is gonna ending up?

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Fasth and Hiller are one of the top tandems in the NHL and they are both undrafted Euros. So it is definitely worth taking a shot on a guy like Cervenka or a Karlson.

But to trade assets for Ramo when he wasn't even going to come over for two seasons was absurd. And don't forget that Jay Feaster was the only one labelling him the best player outside of the NHL.

Karlsson was acquired in a trade as well (sixth rounder at the draft to San Jose, IIRC).


In the end, the Habs trade was: Cammalleri, Ramo's rights, and Ryan Culkin for Bourque, Holland, and Zach Fucale.

Arguably, the Habs got the better draft pick and the better prospect, but the Flames got the much better NHL player, and dumped a contract that still had four full seasons left on it at the time of the trade (taking back one with only two full years left). I don't really have any problem, in a package deal like that, getting a goalie who's two years away from being NHL-ready.

[Jacks]

Schultz could probably be very good with another team. One that forced him to work on his defensive game, played at least a little bit of team defense and played with some pride. He is not a number 1 guy and is never going to succeed playing huge minutes behind that mess of a team.

I think Cervenka could have been a decent NHLer if he came in healthy during a normal season.

Radulov's problems are between his ears as others have said.

Too soon to say with Ramo or Berra.

[Cuz]

Originally Posted by CSharp

All of the players mentioned are meh with the exception of St. Louis. Bruins could've won it all with an average goalie. Gio was good the first season and half when he came back from Europe after holding out from the Flames and before he got hurt. He's still better than all of the D-men on the Flames after Regehr left, but he's really a number one line all-star D-man. Dustin Penner only shows up for the playoffs (if he even shows up). Justin Schultz was good in his first year with the Oilers, but where is he now (besides being on a really bad defensive team ) and where'd the team end up or is gonna ending up?

Tim Thomas is meh? I don't like the guy but he's a two time Vezina winner and is the only reason the Bruins won the cup.

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by Buff

Makes me think about a similar situation from a different entertainment... Would Sting have been a star if he went to the WWE or would he have been a jobber?

Wasn't Sting with the Police?

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by CSharp

All of the players mentioned are meh with the exception of St. Louis. Bruins could've won it all with an average goalie.

Completely disagree on your assessment of Thomas. A Cup, Conn Smythe, two Vezina's, a Jennings, and four All-Star appearances. Aside from Roy, Brodeur, and maybe Hasek Thomas has more hardware in his cabinet than any other goalie in the league in the last twenty years. He may have not had a long career, but definitely been a successful one.

They also won three of their series in 7 games, so I doubt they win with a different goalie in net.

[TurnedTheCorner]

I still like the Cervenka attempt, even though it didn't work out. The lockout didn't help, nor did the resulting shortened season, and Cervenka's own health at the time the season eventually started. I would have liked to see what he could have done over a full season with a full training camp behind him.

Oh well.