Our drafting vs development

[Wolven]

Years ago I would have definitely been on board for questioning the Flames drafting and development. I thought that both the drafting and development systems actually improved under Sutter but really how hard is it to improve from where they were before he took charge.

I feel pretty good about the development system under Ward. Everything I have read about him makes me feel fortunate that he is running things with the Heat.

I am equally optimistic about our drafting with Weisbrod here. I know it is too soon to judge the results of his influence on our drafting principles but I really do not know what more we can hope for at this time.

I know as a Flames fan it is easy to be all doom and gloom about our draft and development system (reading these forums it seems that the majority of people are doom and gloom about everything) but this feels a lot like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm calling for change based on 20 years of prospect failure. I don't know how you guys can be content with this.

Not content but I'm also not going to blame the current management for the failings of past regimes. The fact that Rico Fata developed into a 4th liner at best has nothing to do with what's happening here and no.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You guys may not like my reasons for having zero faith in our player development system, but yet you provide no reason to be optimistic about the future. Who is the best player the Flames have drafted in the last 20 years, Cory Stillman? Even dumb luck should get better results than what this organization is doing right now..

But again you are talking about the last 20 years, yet talking about "right now". One has little to do with the other.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

You place a lot of the blame on Howse for coming to camp out of shape, and that's true. He shoulders a lot of the blame. But where were the Flames during the off-season, working with him, ensuring that he was ready for the demands of professional hockey? It always seems like it's too little, too late for this franchise.

They did work with him. At some point the player has to take ownership for their own career.

Originally Posted by Ashasx

We probably should be looking to trade our first round pick, because we all know it's not going to amount to a player of value for this organization.

We do? Ok then. End of discussion I suppose.

[united]

Originally Posted by Sakari

As far as I'm concerned, Feaster has proven he is excellent at drafting. Just look at the 2011 picks. We're all worried about the 2012 picks, especially Janko, but I have faith in Feaster's choice.

While drafting cannot be pinned on one person and philosphies change, I wouldn't say he has proven he is excellent at drafting. His history seems average to me. To be fair he hasn't had many high picks to work with...but you'd expect a better hit rate in the later rounds regardless. Negative, I know, but I'll cautiously wait and see what his Flames picks turn in to.

Feaster draft history:

Spoiler!

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm calling for change based on 20 years of prospect failure. I don't know how you guys can be content with this.

This is where I stopped reading. Why?

Darryl Sutter (and yes, many of you guys will disagree). Darryl took over and saw how little there was in the pipeline. What did he do?

Slowly but surely, he started expanding the scouting staff and the development program (actual development staff + Abbotsford Heat).

His drafting DID improve. Feaster took over, and has since added more.

If you want to compare the Flames' drafting and development system to 20 years ago, then do it by yourself as it has ZERO relevance now.

Drafting and development takes time to bear the fruits. How about you go and look at how many scouts the Flames had 20 years ago. Then look at it 10 years ago. Then 5. Then 3. Then now. Also keep in mind the Flames are never drafting in the top 5 lottery picks. Most of their selections have been mid-round, and that is much tougher to draft.

Go back and check the history of the development program. How many AHL teams were we affiliated with? Out of those, how many were not in our control - i.e. they were just teams that tried to win and development was not a focus? How many years have the Flames SHARED their AHL team with another organization? How many developmental staff members did Calgary have following their prospects all over the world 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago?

Before you start complaining about it and demanding 'change' - look to see if there HAS BEEN CHANGE already.

Is it perfect? No. But it is improving. There is lots of investment in that area of hockey ops now, and there wasn't before.

Sorry to pick on you, but I just get really annoyed when people throw comments around like the "Flames suck at drafting and development, and something needs to change!" when it HAS been changing! The Flames have since (under Darryl Sutter!) taken note of this huge weakness they have, and have invested HEAVILY into it.

Better question now is: "What do you want them to do now to improve? What do you think is wrong with the 'system'?".

It isn't something where you just hire a bunch of scouts one year, start up an AHL team, and 'presto' - problem fixed. Flames have been drafting better and better, and slowly but surely they are getting some kids in the pipeline that look to have a good chance of stepping into the NHL soon.

Do I think the Flames are 'great' at drafting and development now? I don't know - the proof is always in the pudding, and until they get more players stepping in and contributing, who knows? I just look at it as something that has been addressed, something they have been heavily investing in, and something that takes a bit of time to start reaping the benefits of. I don't see it as a weakness any longer, or a huge problem like many do.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This is where I stopped reading. Why?

Darryl Sutter (and yes, many of you guys will disagree). Darryl took over and saw how little there was in the pipeline. What did he do?

Slowly but surely, he started expanding the scouting staff and the development program (actual development staff + Abbotsford Heat).

His drafting DID improve. Feaster took over, and has since added more.

If you want to compare the Flames' drafting and development system to 20 years ago, then do it by yourself as it has ZERO relevance now.

Drafting and development takes time to bear the fruits. How about you go and look at how many scouts the Flames had 20 years ago. Then look at it 10 years ago. Then 5. Then 3. Then now. Also keep in mind the Flames are never drafting in the top 5 lottery picks. Most of their selections have been mid-round, and that is much tougher to draft.

Go back and check the history of the development program. How many AHL teams were we affiliated with? Out of those, how many were not in our control - i.e. they were just teams that tried to win and development was not a focus? How many years have the Flames SHARED their AHL team with another organization? How many developmental staff members did Calgary have following their prospects all over the world 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago?

Before you start complaining about it and demanding 'change' - look to see if there HAS BEEN CHANGE already.

Is it perfect? No. But it is improving. There is lots of investment in that area of hockey ops now, and there wasn't before.

Sorry to pick on you, but I just get really annoyed when people throw comments around like the "Flames suck at drafting and development, and something needs to change!" when it HAS been changing! The Flames have since (under Darryl Sutter!) taken note of this huge weakness they have, and have invested HEAVILY into it.

Better question now is: "What do you want them to do now to improve? What do you think is wrong with the 'system'?".

It isn't something where you just hire a bunch of scouts one year, start up an AHL team, and 'presto' - problem fixed. Flames have been drafting better and better, and slowly but surely they are getting some kids in the pipeline that look to have a good chance of stepping into the NHL soon.

Do I think the Flames are 'great' at drafting and development now? I don't know - the proof is always in the pudding, and until they get more players stepping in and contributing, who knows? I just look at it as something that has been addressed, something they have been heavily investing in, and something that takes a bit of time to start reaping the benefits of. I don't see it as a weakness any longer, or a huge problem like many do.

I'm not questioning the current drafting system. I've liked Feaster's drafts these last 2 seasons. I'm not sold on the Jankowski pick, but in theory, I really like it. I'd still take Mark over the Tom Wilson, Scott Laughton, Brendan Gaunce type players (ex. Nemisz, Chucko 2.0).

But what exactly has changed on the development side of things? Hiring Ward?

I used to really like Ward, but the more I looked at it, the more I couldn't bring myself to accept his decisions. We all point to Brodie as a sign of things improving, but Ward really had very little time with Brodie. Playfair developed Brodie, and he's not even with this organization anymore (not that I think Playfair is good at this anyway).

So what has Ward done since joining this organization? Give the likes of Ben Walter and Kolanos 25 minutes a night, all while being terrible defensively? What's he trying to prove to somebody like Reinhart, who has been renown for his defensive capabilities as a prospect? Split time between the press box and getting 5 minutes a night on the 4th line? I guess he's done a fine job preparing players for playing 5 minutes a night when they get called up due to injury.

I'm all for teaching young players lessons, but at what point do you give these kids the opportunity to show their potential?

Sven Baertschi is the embodiment of all 3 things Feaster says he drafts for: skill, IQ, and passion. So why was he getting benched for periods of a time down in Abbotsford? Because he turned over the puck at the opposition blue line a couple times?

Now Abbotsford can't even score goals anymore. Some 43 goals in the last 25 games? Yet Reinhart sits last game?

I don't know what changes need to be made exactly. I don't have all the answers. I don't know what exactly is going on behind closed doors. All I'm doing is identifying a problem that I am not satisfied with as a fan.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

I think there have been two major changes in drafting philosophy.

a) They've been focusing more on the player's attitude and how they are as a person. Had Sutter concerned himself more with the pre-draft interview sessions, maybe he would've known that Dan Ryder had some mental issues and he should've stayed away, for example.

b) Feaster and co. have been making high risk, high reward players rather than Darryl's low risk, low reward players like Chucko, for example. Chucko was an NHL player. I saw him play on numerous occasions and he was going to be an excellent 3rd line player with skill for the Flames. But that's not what this current regime wants. They want player that will become all-stars in the early rounds and want solid third and fourth line players in the later rounds (Deblouw, Arnold).

Those are the two aspects I've liked the most about Feaster and Weisbrod's drafting these last couple of years.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

@Ashasx

I'm not sure Reinhart's the best example to use. He hasn't been getting 5 minutes a game. He's been getting 5 minutes a period. I'm looking at Reinhart's TOI for his last five games and he's ranged from 14:38 at the lowest and 18:12 at the most. I've posted it in past threads, he's playing the point on the PP (where he played in Kootenay under coach Knoblauch) and is a go-to guy on the PK and in all defensive situations. He's only been a healthy scratch twice this season, which is excellent for a rookie pro. In fact, I think he's the perfect example of a kid that's being given every opportunity to succeed.

As for the Brodie/Playfair/Ward thing, Brodie has openly and publicly stated how it was Ward that really brought his game to the next level. Brodie is on record as saying Playfair would scream and yell at him and then bench him for periods at a time and Brodie had no idea why. So Ward would go over to him and explain what Playfair wants out of him. It was Ward that taught Brodie to look at the forward's toes in one-on-one situations because it's the guy's toes that will tell him what his next move is.

Ashasx, you have every reason to be skeptical of Ward and the Heat if you want. I can see how from an outside perspective it looks like no one is progressing, but I'll take the player's accounts of how things are going before a fan's perspective. And it's the players that love playing for Ward and have said Ward is an excellent developmental coach.