Digital piano vs regular old school piano

[Titan]

And why does someone called BIFF own a piano store?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Titan

And why does someone called BIFF own a piano store?

He decided not to bet on the sports results in the almanac

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Biff

I own a piano store. I'd put anything digital in the under $2000 price-point into the same category as an under $2000 acoustic piano. Both will, generally, be modest performance with a fairly low "ceiling" in terms of long-term suitability. Good instruments, like good cars, cost more. Thankfully not the same dollar amounts (okay, sometimes the same). My advice to you would be the same as anyone else who visits us. A good piano, new, is likely a $5000 and up investment. We can do new home-style digital instruments, suitable for five or more years of developmental piano studies, in the $2500 - $6000 space. Anything less than $2500 for new digital is a compromise either in appearance (portable or small form factor can be a bit less costly than furniture style models) or performance.

In the end, good pianos are defined by tone, touch and responsiveness (ability to faithfully perform the body of piano music). Those characteristics aren't often present in particularly strong measure until you're into the $2500 and up area. To begin, a value choice can be an acceptable starting point but expect that you may need an upgrade within a couple years if the players make normal progress.

It is sometimes possible to find that magic used piano that performs well, is in good condition, and is still relatively affordable. A good piano technician can help you determine condition if you're spending an amount that justifies some extra assurance.

An under $2500 piano, acoustic or digital, might be best considered in the same way as an under $5000 car. It'll get you from point A to point B but don't expect too much in terms of performance, finesse or long-term value.

Can you expand on what you've written here about the limitations of a sub $2500 digital piano? Respectfully, this sounds a little bit like a guy saying you need a Gibson Les Paul when an Epiphone Les Paul will work just fine, even for professional musicians.

But I'm not knowledgable about pianos like I am with guitars, so I don't know what the limiting factors in the instrument might be that neccessitate that level of investment - I'm absolutely not suggesting what you are saying is false; consider it an opportunity to educate me.

[Biff]

Yes. Sizeable CP discounts always.

There are good answers on the $2500 and under question. It would be easiest if everyone could just pop into the store for a few moments and we could explore together in person.

As this is somewhat impractical, I'll take a stab at describing the limitations. First, if you are using the instrument through headphones predominantly, then the sophistication of the sound system isn't that important. Normal piano practice doesn't involve headphones so the quality of the sound system in a digital piano can make a significant difference in terms of authenticity and a more "acoustic"-sounding experience. The two best digital pianos I have, and have ever heard in the 25-years I've been doing this, both have extraordinarily sophisticated sound systems. They create a startlingly "real" piano experience when you're seated in front of them. In most cases, sound systems are the first things sacrificed to get to smaller form factors and lower price points.

Second issue is the quality and performance of the core piano engine both for sound and for feel. Think of sound as the engine and touch as the drive-train / transmission. Both need to be working well, both separately and together, in order to get good performance. I know that the major manufacturer we work with can't put their highest performing action (key mechanism) into instruments under $2500.00. You can get acceptable beginner to mid-intermediate performance out of the "entry" actions, but can't do developmental piano much beyond that level whereas the top-flight actions have a few years of additional developmental head-room. The highest performing digital pianos are now knocking at the door of performance caliber which, considering that a new performance level acoustic upright piano is at or beyond $10000 is pretty good company for instruments in the $4-6000 range.

Beyond the feel, however, is the sophistication and realism of the piano engine in terms of sound. The piano is actually a ridiculously difficult instrument to simulate. There's all kinds of overtones, sympathetic resonances of one string to another, changes over time based on sustain, changes in tonality based on volume and much more besides. The top manufacturers have been on an over 30-year development journey to solve some of these challenges. In the top-flight instruments, we're getting awfully close. The entry-level instruments? Not so much. Are they vaguely piano-like and sort of work and sound like a piano? Sure...but the inaccuracies, errors and oversights will impact how much "true" piano work you can accomplish.

I think, sometimes, of a car analogy as we are all comfortable with the idea that different levels of performance and quality exist in cars. The one difference between cars, or driving, and piano is that the goal is to become a much better "driver" of the piano over time. A "less-than" instrument impedes that process and may, ultimately, preclude the ability to drive much better than at a utilitarian level. Does that mean everyone needs to buy an F1 piano just to start out? Of course not. It does mean, though, that the needs for a piano may change over time and, ultimately, more costly instruments provide more performance. With a certain understandable bias, our industry has always advocated buying the best piano possible to provide that developmental head-room and also to reward even novice playing with a better touch and tone context.

Ultimately, whether it's on the acoustic side or the digital side, the trick is to look at the level of performance that either is currently required or will be required in the future and, as the cliche says, begin with the end in mind. A huge part of my daily job is to take clients through the journey of how piano performance is defined and what changes at the various different price points. We've encapsulated it into a presentation we sometimes do as a workshop called The Art of Selecting a Piano. In that framework, we point to some of the limitations of the value end of the equation.

[ripTDR]

Dude needs something his kids can bang on and maybe learn, while there are merits of owning something more high end, to say that you can't get something decent for under a grand, is misleading.

[Biff]

I'm not saying you can't begin there. I am saying what the difference over time looks like. Also, if there weren't meaningful differences in performance in manufactured goods, everything would cost the same and perform to equivalent levels. The differences exist.

My job, I think, is to provide my clients with a valid evaluation framework. It ultimately is up to them to make their own value-based purchase decision. I'm not knocking making a modest beginning. Heck, I advocate that to lots of people. I thought it might be useful to point out where the various bars are set in terms of defining the piano market. I've literally faced the OP's question countless times. No desire to offend so apologies if I have.

[ripTDR]

Actually, I apologise for the standoffish tone of my post. It's just that I've seen my sister buy something very expensive, just to see her kid midi out and bang away at a bunch of GarageBand instruments and various vsts, which is also a viable alternative.

[killer_carlson]

I have been continuing my search. The digital pianos ive seen have not impressed me at all. Ive gone up a price bracket and am now looking at some refurbished acoustics from a store in Edmonton.

I wish i was in cgy to get the cp discount from Biff though!

[Northendzone]

Have you considered visiting Ted and Edna Boyle's Organ Emporium?

[killer_carlson]

So i bought a mderately refurbished acoustic piano. It was delivered today. I didnt tell the 5 year old or 3 year old anything about it - just that i had a surprise for them and that is why i am not at work. The 2 year old just follows her sisters around, so she didnt get the surprise aspect quite as well.

The kids go bananas while the delivery guys are here. Could hardly contain themselves. As soon as the delivery guys leave, they push the bench up and sit beside each other and start playing and singing. Great family moment. Go to get the camera, come back 15 seconds later only to find the three of them in a goddamned scrap over who gets to press what friggen key. Now all three are in some sort of piano psychosis and cant be in the same room as each other without the scrap happening again.

Son of a beatch! Not how i thought this was going to go.

Fart.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Biff

Yes. Sizeable CP discounts always.

There are good answers on the $2500 and under question. It would be easiest if everyone could just pop into the store for a few moments and we could explore together in person.

As this is somewhat impractical, I'll take a stab at describing the limitations. First, if you are using the instrument through headphones predominantly, then the sophistication of the sound system isn't that important. Normal piano practice doesn't involve headphones so the quality of the sound system in a digital piano can make a significant difference in terms of authenticity and a more "acoustic"-sounding experience. The two best digital pianos I have, and have ever heard in the 25-years I've been doing this, both have extraordinarily sophisticated sound systems. They create a startlingly "real" piano experience when you're seated in front of them. In most cases, sound systems are the first things sacrificed to get to smaller form factors and lower price points.

Second issue is the quality and performance of the core piano engine both for sound and for feel. Think of sound as the engine and touch as the drive-train / transmission. Both need to be working well, both separately and together, in order to get good performance. I know that the major manufacturer we work with can't put their highest performing action (key mechanism) into instruments under $2500.00. You can get acceptable beginner to mid-intermediate performance out of the "entry" actions, but can't do developmental piano much beyond that level whereas the top-flight actions have a few years of additional developmental head-room. The highest performing digital pianos are now knocking at the door of performance caliber which, considering that a new performance level acoustic upright piano is at or beyond $10000 is pretty good company for instruments in the $4-6000 range.

Beyond the feel, however, is the sophistication and realism of the piano engine in terms of sound. The piano is actually a ridiculously difficult instrument to simulate. There's all kinds of overtones, sympathetic resonances of one string to another, changes over time based on sustain, changes in tonality based on volume and much more besides. The top manufacturers have been on an over 30-year development journey to solve some of these challenges. In the top-flight instruments, we're getting awfully close. The entry-level instruments? Not so much. Are they vaguely piano-like and sort of work and sound like a piano? Sure...but the inaccuracies, errors and oversights will impact how much "true" piano work you can accomplish.

I think, sometimes, of a car analogy as we are all comfortable with the idea that different levels of performance and quality exist in cars. The one difference between cars, or driving, and piano is that the goal is to become a much better "driver" of the piano over time. A "less-than" instrument impedes that process and may, ultimately, preclude the ability to drive much better than at a utilitarian level. Does that mean everyone needs to buy an F1 piano just to start out? Of course not. It does mean, though, that the needs for a piano may change over time and, ultimately, more costly instruments provide more performance. With a certain understandable bias, our industry has always advocated buying the best piano possible to provide that developmental head-room and also to reward even novice playing with a better touch and tone context.

Ultimately, whether it's on the acoustic side or the digital side, the trick is to look at the level of performance that either is currently required or will be required in the future and, as the cliche says, begin with the end in mind. A huge part of my daily job is to take clients through the journey of how piano performance is defined and what changes at the various different price points. We've encapsulated it into a presentation we sometimes do as a workshop called The Art of Selecting a Piano. In that framework, we point to some of the limitations of the value end of the equation.

As a musician who bought a $2000 guitar when a $200 one would have done, I have to disagree with this. Certainly, professional pianists and audiophiles may be able to detect the differences but you can get excellent digital pianos for under $2000 or even $1000 that offer everything and more any average piano player could want. I additionally also get variety in simply applying new patches and software if I want different engines or samples or sound that uses the latest technology to capture and replicate sounds and nuances from traditional pianos that cost 10 times more.

Just like on the guitar, an excellent player can make a cheap instrument sound heavenly and a poor player can make an expensive instrument sound like the cacophony from hell.

The "less-than" instrument, in my opinion, is a fallacy unless the actual mechanics of the cheap instrument and the tolerances of it's mechanical function is so bad that it impedes the player from learning or playing (that is true of the budget basement level). There is no such thing as "true" piano work. All music is as true as the artist makes it. Errors and inaccuracies and working with limitations is part of the individuality and character of any instrument.

Costly instruments do not provide more "performance". Mechanically, they may be easier to play or easier to control certain nuances but ultimately, they provide a different aural and more subtle and refined experience that would be more valuable to certain styles of piano. That's an important point I believe. If you are playing ragtime, funk, blues, jazz, etc. having an expensive grand might even be detrimental to your preferred sound. One of the best piano pieces I have ever heard was on a cheap, out-of-tune, honky-tonk piano that was donated to a retirement home and a great pianist who lived there was playing it.

Of course, you work in the high end of the piano industry and the people who are your regular clientele are going to be the ones who are interested in that bracket but I wholeheartedly have to argue that the sub-$2500 is a fantastically good arena of choice for the average home musician or someone looking to learn.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by photon

There are cheaper digital pianos, even full 88 key ones with touch response (i.e. softer/louder depending on how hard you press).

Costco usually has an ok selection:

http://www.costco.ca/CatalogSearch?s...&keyword=piano

Unless they've expressed an interest in learning piano might be better to start cheaper (not super cheap, full sized with touch sensitive and weighted keys is still a good idea, too cheap and they won't like it at all), and also easier to get rid of if they don't catch interest than an actual massive piano.

Plus the electronic one is better if they decide later to play keyboard rather than piano, they'll likely be able to either use the extra sounds or plug in boxes to get whatever sounds they want.

+1

We got a Casio from Costco for about $150 and it has a couple of really great features:
-Keys that light up
-Touch sensitive keys
-A microphone (which pumps up the fun+play+interest)
-Lots of ways to do self taught lessons

On a side note: how much any piano is used is strongly correlated with the room that you put it in. Before the Casio, we had the real piano in our kitchen (the heart of our house) and it was used a lot. Since we moved it to the dining room nearby it has barely been touched.

[polak]

An acoustic piano is meant to be a set piece, but it needs to be tuned and maintained and it's a huge hassle to move anywhere. An electronic piano isn't a set piece and even with weighted keys, it still feels different.

Get them a midi controller (keyboard that connects to a computer) and fruity loops and they can learn all aspects of song writing not just one. Then you unleash them on to the world and spend all the money they earn as child prodigies.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by polak

An acoustic piano is meant to be a set piece, but it needs to be tuned and maintained and it's a huge hassle to move anywhere. An electronic piano isn't a set piece and even with weighted keys, it still feels different.

Get them a midi controller (keyboard that connects to a computer) and fruity loops and they can learn all aspects of song writing not just one. Then you unleash them on to the world and spend all the money they earn as child prodigies.

I can't recommend this enough for a child. Give them more variety and access to more options. My love of music was stimulated not by the boring upright but by the synth my uncle gave me so I could experiment with other sounds and styles and just play to my heart's content when I wasn't under the regime of my classical piano lessons. That's why I came back to music as an adult.

A midi keyboard plus good software and patches will allow a young child the ability to start creating their own music and really open up their mind.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

+1

On a side note: how much any piano is used is strongly correlated with the room that you put it in. Before the Casio, we had the real piano in our kitchen (the heart of our house) and it was used a lot. Since we moved it to the dining room nearby it has barely been touched.

That's very true too. Just like any instrument, when it's in an accessible place (kitchen, office, living room), you are more likely to sit down for a few minutes every day to use it to get away from other things and just play.

Instruments kept in the corner or rarely used rooms tend to collect dust.

[rotten42]

I digital piano will be fine as long as it has weighted keys so they learn properly. Those usually start at around $1000 and go up from there. The other advantage with the digital piano is that it will have a midi out so you can plug in a tone generator and have access to a few thousand other sounds.

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

So i bought a mderately refurbished acoustic piano. It was delivered today. I didnt tell the 5 year old or 3 year old anything about it - just that i had a surprise for them and that is why i am not at work. The 2 year old just follows her sisters around, so she didnt get the surprise aspect quite as well.

The kids go bananas while the delivery guys are here. Could hardly contain themselves. As soon as the delivery guys leave, they push the bench up and sit beside each other and start playing and singing. Great family moment. Go to get the camera, come back 15 seconds later only to find the three of them in a goddamned scrap over who gets to press what friggen key. Now all three are in some sort of piano psychosis and cant be in the same room as each other without the scrap happening again.

Son of a beatch! Not how i thought this was going to go.

Fart.

Haha that's awesome. I guess you need to pick up a digital piano after all to appease everyone. The idea of having both is probably the best solution. 'Hey kids - here's a set of headphones. Go nuts'

[northcrunk]

I would say digital for kids to learn on because it's more portable. Personally I prefer midi as I produce music on my PC so if I was going to spend that kind of money on a keyboard I would get a M-audio axion pro 61 for $500 or a oxygen 88 will Graded Hammer-Action for $650. Reaper is available full version for $60 and you can just plug in VST instruments and play anything.

[Buff]

Go acoustic:

http://www.pianos.ca/digital-piano-o...stic-piano.htm

We have an acoustic piano and our 7 year old began to take lessons this year. Really impressive how fast he has learned to play. We may have a musical prodigy on our hands (not that my opinion is biased or anything).

[polak]

I know that you already made your purchase but I'll post this for anyone else on here...

Another good thing about midi is that it encourages the user to quickly transition into writing their own music as remaking other peoples work on a computer is pretty boring.

As someone who originally learned to play guitar and piano, I never had a clue about song writing until I moved into electronic music production (you can make all sort of genres on a computer, doesn't have to be dance, pop or hip hop). I was great at guitar, I could play some really difficult stuff and impress a lot of people but I wasn't a musician, I just copied other people art. You wouldn't call someone who copies other peoples paintings and "artist" would you? No one is a prodigy until they start writing their own amazing pieces.

Learning other peoples music is great to teach you the basics, but it's important that the person learning doesn't become complacent with just mimicking others and I've found that without the ability to sing, or a singer to join up with, most people will never make that transition on analog instruments. With midi and some software they can transfer what they learned on piano, to other instruments very easily and with a little hard work they can learn the basics of percussion and bass and eventually even things such as mixing and mastering.

Thats the end of my little rant that doesn't have much to do with the OP

(P.S. You wouldn't want to introduce a child into this until they are at least around 12-13 years old and completely computer literate, because it's still pretty complicated)