F-35 Fighter Jet Conservative numbers are accurate

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Yasa

The F-35 reminds me of a penguin sliding on its belly.

Only if the Penquin could slip by the polar bears radar and drop a J-Dam on its house.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Only if the Penquin could slip by the polar bears radar and drop a J-Dam on its house.

That'd be impressive, not only because of the ordnance but because of the range those penguins would have to slide.

[Codes]

This is good news. I fully supported the purchase of these jets as our CF-18s are nearing the end of their operational lifespan, but was worried by the ever-increasing cost of the F-35 program. Our CF-18s have been wonderful, but it's time for a new fighter in our fleet.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by sa226

Although the situations are probably a little different, it is interesting that the OP's article came out one day earlier than this one:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/wor...stainable.html

Sad thing is the entire goal of the JSF program was to create a single fighter to reduce costs. Its sad that the costs of these things have spiraled so far out of control that I'm not sure its much of a cost reduction anymore. At least for the Americans

I wonder if things would have been much different under Boeing if they had won the JSF competition with their flying bullfrog design.

[CaptainCrunch]

Boeing hasn't given up on the Bullfrog, they see it as the next generation after the F-35




Sure is purty though

[photon]

I wish I had my sketches from back when I wanted to be an aerospace engineer, I had one that looked almost exactly like that!

[Codes]

Starting to remind me of the spacecraft used by the humans in the Halo universe. Very cool!

[CaptainCrunch]

Its funny looking at that design.

There's only been a single flyable aircraft without a rudder control surface



Because of that design its heavily flown by computers and without the computers it would be unflyable.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Boeing hasn't given up on the Bullfrog, they see it as the next generation after the F-35

Sure is purty though

Reminds me of something out of wing commander or the sort. Certainly prettier than these

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its funny looking at that design.

There's only been a single flyable aircraft without a rudder control surface



Because of that design its heavily flown by computers and without the computers it would be unflyable.

Uhhh..you sure about that...1947 called and wants it's flying wings back

Edit: OK, so this one has rudders. However, they are split drag rudders, not unlike what the B-2 does to achieve yaw control.

Edit #2: Did the HO 229 have rudders? The photo's I found, it doesn't look like it..weird

[Frank@75]

The problem with the F-35 is that it is still a top secret program; many of the features are still unknown to the public. What we do know is that the performance is inferior to the F-18 & F16’s as well as most gen 4 aircraft of other nations (because of total wing area) meaning that it will be primarily a BVR/ground attack fighter. As for first strike or close range dog fighting the F-35 will be severely outmatched. The strength is in the software, it will be unlike any (F-22 included) plane ever built with the ability to continually upgrade at a very low cost. There are rumors that the Canadian planes can be controlled on the ground by US operators which would explain the American protection of the software and source codes.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by blankall

The F-35 is a "fifth generation fighter". If everything about it is advertised it will be the best strike fighter out there. It will have air superiority to every aircraft except the F-22, which only the USA has.

So basically we can invade everywhere except the USA with it.

Russia, China, and India, are all working on their own fifth generation fighters, but apparently they suck. However, you never know what will actually happen once all these aircraft reach operation.

Considering that Canada is likely to use their aircraft for "peace keeping missions", IE: bombing less technologically advanced countries, the strike fighter is probably a better choice than a pure fighter.

Edit: Japan and South Korea also are developing "fifth generation" fighters, but they suck too.

And they haven't used the F-22 in Afghanistan, Iraq, or Libya... To quote Bill Maher, 'what are we saving them for? The Transformers?'

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Frank@50

The problem with the F-35 is that it is still a top secret program; many of the features are still unknown to the public. What we do know is that the performance is inferior to the F-18 & F16’s as well as most gen 4 aircraft of other nations (because of total wing area) meaning that it will be primarily a BVR/ground attack fighter. As for first strike or close range dog fighting the F-35 will be severely outmatched. The strength is in the software, it will be unlike any (F-22 included) plane ever built with the ability to continually upgrade at a very low cost. There are rumors that the Canadian planes can be controlled on the ground by US operators which would explain the American protection of the software and source codes.

If I might ask (and I speak out of complete ignorance here), when was the last time a Canadian pilot was actually involved in a dogfight?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Frank@50

The problem with the F-35 is that it is still a top secret program; many of the features are still unknown to the public. What we do know is that the performance is inferior to the F-18 & F16’s as well as most gen 4 aircraft of other nations (because of total wing area) meaning that it will be primarily a BVR/ground attack fighter. As for first strike or close range dog fighting the F-35 will be severely outmatched. The strength is in the software, it will be unlike any (F-22 included) plane ever built with the ability to continually upgrade at a very low cost. There are rumors that the Canadian planes can be controlled on the ground by US operators which would explain the American protection of the software and source codes.

The F-35 has greater payload capability, and a greater combat range the the F-18, it has better avionics is more maneuverable and a smaller radar signature.

It can go higher, and has double the combat radius, more then double the dry thrust and after burner thrust then the F-18 a assumed far better rate of climb.

F/A-18C/D General characteristics

• Crew: F/A-18C: 1, F/A-18D: 2 (pilot and weapons system officer)
• Length: 56 ft (17.1 m)
• Wingspan: 40 ft (12.3 m)
• Height: 15 ft 4 in (4.7 m)
• Wing area: 400 ft² (38 m²)
• Airfoil: NACA 65A005 mod root, 65A003.5 mod tip
• Empty weight: 24,700 lb (11,200 kg)
• Loaded weight: 37,150 lb (16,850 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 51,550 lb (23,400 kg)
• Powerplant: 2× General Electric F404-GE-402 turbofans
  • Dry thrust: 11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 17,750 lbf (79.2 kN) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 (1,190 mph, 1,915 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,190 m)
• Combat radius: 330 mi (290 NM, 537 km) on hi-lo-lo-hi mission
• Ferry range: 2,070 mi (1,800 NM, 3,330 km)
• Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
• Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
• Wing loading: 93 lb/ft² (450 kg/m²)
• Thrust/weight: >0.95

and now the F-35

F-35 General characteristics

• Crew: 1
• Length: 51.4 ft (15.67 m)
• Wingspan: 35 ft (10.7 m)
• Height: 14.2 ft (4.33 m)
• Wing area: 460 ft² (42.7 m²)
• Empty weight: 29,300 lb (13,300 kg)
• Loaded weight: 44,400 lb (20,100 kg)
• Max takeoff weight: 70,000 lb(31,800 kg)
• Powerplant: 1× Pratt & Whitney F135 afterburning turbofan
  • Dry thrust: 28,000 lbf (125 kN)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 43,000 lbf (191 kN)
• Internal fuel: 18,480 lb (8,382 kg)

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.67 (1,283 mph, 2,065 km/h)
• Range: 1,200 nmi (2,220 km) on internal fuel
• Combat radius: 610 nmi (1,110 km) on internal fuel
• Service ceiling: 60,000 ft (18,288 m)
• Rate of climb: classified (not publicly available)
• Wing loading: 91.4 lb/ft² (446 kg/m²)
• Thrust/weight:
  • With full fuel: 0.84;
  • With 50% fuel: 1.04 B:
• g-Limits: 9

The f-16 is a very capable aircraft, but the F-35 has severe advantages in terms of sensors avionics, and radar cross section.

I don't know where the belief is that any 4th generation fighter is going to outperform the F-35 because its simply not true in terms of sensors, avionics, radar cross section power plant capability, combat radius, climb rate, ceiling combat loads or anything, computer combat systems, information sharing between multiple units and HQ.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by Frank@50

What we do know is that the performance is inferior to the F-18 & F16’s as well as most gen 4 aircraft of other nations (because of total wing area) meaning that it will be primarily a BVR/ground attack fighter.

The F-35A has marginally lower wing loading than an F-18, and higher dry and afterburning thrust. It's also rated for 9 g's, vs. 7.5 for the F-18 (although I think some F-18's meant strictly for air combat are rated higher, eg. swiss variants). I would imagine the flight control systems are more refined on the F-35 as well, so it should be able to eke more performance out of the airframe than the 4th gen fighters.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Frank@50

The problem with the F-35 is that it is still a top secret program; many of the features are still unknown to the public. What we do know is that the performance is inferior to the F-18 & F16’s as well as most gen 4 aircraft of other nations (because of total wing area) meaning that it will be primarily a BVR/ground attack fighter. As for first strike or close range dog fighting the F-35 will be severely outmatched. The strength is in the software, it will be unlike any (F-22 included) plane ever built with the ability to continually upgrade at a very low cost. There are rumors that the Canadian planes can be controlled on the ground by US operators which would explain the American protection of the software and source codes.

Can you provide a source for this? Everything I've read says that the F-35 should be able to take down everythign in a dog fight except the F-22.

The f-35s also have a lot of stealth and electronic warfare features that should make them clearly superior to any fourth gen fighter. The F-35 is supposed to be the replacement for the f-16 in fact.

[Hack&Lube]

F-35 is actually capable of tracking and jamming the F-22's radar.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Reminds me of something out of wing commander or the sort. Certainly prettier than these

but it's such a happy looking airplane!

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by blankall

Can you provide a source for this? Everything I've read says that the F-35 should be able to take down everythign in a dog fight except the F-22.

The f-35s also have a lot of stealth and electronic warfare features that should make them clearly superior to any fourth gen fighter. The F-35 is supposed to be the replacement for the f-16 in fact.

China, Russia, and India are all coming out with 5th generation fighters but it remains to be seen how good they actually are. China and Russia already have flying prototypes. The key is their LO technology and avionics will probably be behind even the F-35.

The interesting part is that the reason Russia and China are getting into the game because they want to get into the market for selling jets to non-western and developing countries that want to get on the stealth bandwagon. Chinese 5th gen fighters for example, could be 50% to 80% cheaper than American fighters. Then again, if they suck, even if you have two for every F-22, it might take 10 of them to be a match for it.

The USAF has conducted wargames between squadrons of F-22s against F-15s and F-16s and the F-22 kill ratio was 30:1.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Frank@50

What we do know is that the performance is inferior to the F-18 & F16’s as well as most gen 4 aircraft of other nations (because of total wing area) meaning that it will be primarily a BVR/ground attack fighter.

The F-35 is not an air superiority fighter or even interceptor. You're right, it will be BVR multi-role jet that is supposed to fill in for a lot of roles but doesn't excel in any specific one. It does however have 1/1000th the radar signature of the F-16s and F-18s.

Keep in mind, we are getting the CF-35 which is basically the F-35A so no cool STOVL like the F-35B (which replaces F-18s and Harriers).