America, ain't it great? Boy shoots family with birthday present.

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Now, I have heard this said before many times. But nobody has been able to adequately explain why Canada has a murder rate of 1.8 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants per year while in the United States it is 5.0 homicides per 100,000 people. That's 2.8X Canada's murder rate. The "this happens everywhere" thinking may be correct, but it happens MORE in the United States.

The "correlation" vs "causation" thing may be true. I see "freer access to guns" being a cause of that 2.8X, but the correlation does not prove causation, so I have no guaranteed proof of my belief. Some have told me that it's just cultural.... Americans, coming from the American Revolution, are just more violent than Canadians. Others have said that it's the wealth gap... there are more extremely poor people in the U.S. that see no option but to join gangs, deal drugs, etc.. But do those factors explain the 2.8X and wouldn't those things suggest that there are reasons to believe that Canada, as a society, has done a better job of curtailing violent crimes like homicide?

Circumstance is the explanation you are looking for. Most of the US problems grow from pretty basic racism from a long time ago. Almost every gang has been started as a way to combat racism against their group. For instance:

The MS13 is likely the most violent street gang in the world. If you look deeply at it's roots, you will find that it was a small group of people from El Salvador living in LA. They were forced to band together because the Mexican population didn't like them. Turns into a small scale gang war. US INS rounds up all of the MS boys and deports them. They have learned that they can rule through violence and intimidation and brought that to their homeland, where they recruited and grew. They returned to the US and set up shop. The spread, and now have active members living in Vancouver, Edmonton, Montreal, and Toronto. The spread into Canada has only recently started.

With the exception of our First Nations communities, Canada has largely avoided the problem of racial gang wars. This is generally because we could all see what was happening in the south and learned from it. Our governments have preached tolerance since before I was born, and it has had a positive impact. Not saying that racial gangs don't exist in Canada, because they certainly do. First Nations gangs plague our reserve system, mostly because the reserve system is a horribly racist concept in principal.

The Asian gang "problem" in Calgary started the same way as the MS13 story above. A group of kids getting picked on in school banded together. They later found drug sales as a way to make a quick buck. Profit split the gang and formed 2 factions competing for money and criminal opportunities.

The reason for your numbers is simply because the gang system in Canada is still in its infancy. Give it time to grow, and it will. If we continue to stay the course we are on, without continuing to learn from our neighbours who have been through these problems, then we will end up with the same problems. Integration is key. Everyone should be accepted into every community, regardless of race. With that, we take away the number one cause of gang warfare. The number 2 cause is laziness (drug profit and assorted org crime)... For that we need more police to detect and deter criminal enterprises.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by evman150

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

Some remedial reading for you.

Larger populations leads to more minorities finding each other and expanding (in more ways than just numbers). I know Jordon is trying to say, and its more than just more problems divided by more people, its the ability to have problem groups feaster. For instance, even in an area that is largely known to science focused, you will see religious extremists preaching on the streets. 10 million people in the Bay area, and the few extremists will find others who share something in common.

The bigger differentiator between the 2 countries has to be the widening separation between the wealthy and educated, and everyone else. Middle tier education in Canada is way better than middle education in the USA, and it shows. This widening spread causes problems for lower class, and by having the widening spread with the lower class far outgrowing the upper class, you see more crimes. (As a side note, I'm a little surprised I don't see any bitterness of any sort from the lower class in SF Bay Area towards the upper class)
(Side EDIT: Maybe hockeycop knows more about this than I do, with his LA story)

Lastly... USA is a big country. There are a lot of problem areas, and a lot of areas that don't have problems. Tough to say pinpoint issues for one area, and say its the same throughout the country. Even in the SF Bay Area, there is a huge difference between San Francisco, versus Oakland, versus Santa Clara, versus San Jose... even if they are a few miles apart from each other.

[hockeycop]

Also, it is very easy to get an illegal gun in Canada. All you need is $5-600 and a walk around some of our sketchy areas. You'll find the right people. Probably easier than getting a legal gun.

The US gun laws are not the source of the problem. While I would agree that they are too lax, people who want guns for a criminal purpose aren't usually applying for a permit to carry before they go out and shoot someone.

[Slanter]

That's probably true that you could get an illegal gun pretty easily in Canada, but I doubt you could get an assault rifle or something like that easily. You can buy those things legally in the states, and I think that's totally wrong.

I would also imagine that it's a lot harder to get a handgun illegally in Canada. I think our system of restricted and prohibited firearms is a great idea.

Also: hockeycop, I'm not sure if your thesis about gangs would stand up to rigorous debate or not, but it sure seemed well thought out. Interesting read, thanks.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by hockeycop

Also, it is very easy to get an illegal gun in Canada. All you need is $5-600 and a walk around some of our sketchy areas. You'll find the right people. Probably easier than getting a legal gun.

The US gun laws are not the source of the problem. While I would agree that they are too lax, people who want guns for a criminal purpose aren't usually applying for a permit to carry before they go out and shoot someone.

Terrible post:

Probably easier than getting a legal gun

Captain Obvious.

The US gun laws are not the source of the problem

No there are just awesome, 2nd amendment says so.

[pylon]

As much as I advocate gun control, he is right. If you really needed a gun in a hurry, it would be far easier to go the illegal route, than jumping through all the hoops the government requires you to to get a handgun permit. And a huge portion of those that opt to carry one would never qualify to get an FAC. I know a guy who gets ragemad any time gun control or the registry is brought up. He owns a couple registered hand guns, and belongs to a shooting club. He said, and I quote "What's the point of a registry, when I could give you a couple phone numbers that could put virtually any weapon you want, in your reach tonight, for no more than a thousand bucks."

It is a good point. You can not argue that fact. I do think the best thing that comes of the whole registry / gun control argument, is the fact that it will stop the guy who can't get access to that number when he is in a fit of rage and give him some cool down time. The whole screening and application process takes so long, it eliminates a big portion of the in the heat of the moment types of shootings, which in the end I believe validates it.

[Displaced Flames fan]

I'm curious why the OP chose the thread title given that the gun used in this incident is perfectly legal in Canada?

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by J pold

For all those so opinionated about American society, how many people have actually lived there and really experienced it? So many people bash the main stream American media as vehicles for hate and propaganda but it seems to me that many people outside the US use it to form their opinions of American life, kind of bizarre.

I lived there for most of my life, in varying types of cities. There is an element to American society that is more violent than Canadian. I think the biggest reason is there is far more poverty and far worse education. The dregs of America are much worse than the dregs of Canada. With the exception of the reservations. And I like the United States, I'll probably move back.

Of course, there are 10 times more Americans than Canadians. So these stories are bound to be more frequent coming from the United States than elsewhere.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

I'm curious why the OP chose the thread title given that the gun used in this incident is perfectly legal in Canada?

Hand guns are not illegal in Canada, as many believe and are the biggest problem of all in the US. Just fully automatic weapons are illegal here. However, the requirements to get the permit is far more rigid then long guns. As long as you are not a convicted felon, and have a registered gun club membership, you can get a handgun. The wait I believe now is four months start to finish once you complete all of you required safety courses. Any regular Joe can get one, as long as he is patient.

As stupid as it sounds with my rants against guns, I actually have a restricted PAL certificate, as for some time I had interest in sport shooting. I wont deny range shooting is an absolute blast, I just didn't figure ownership was really a smart choice with places like the shooting edge where you can just go fire off some rounds, using their guns, without the burden of keeping the thing in your home, and proper maintenance.

[PsnaP]

Does anyone else find it disturbing that he shot his dad through his mouth? He must have been asleep, how do you let someone stick a rifle in your mouth without a struggle.

There must have been something going on with that kid. Its too bad that no one caught on to him before hand. Im wondering if he played video games, head shots?? Makes me sick to think of him slinking around his house in the middle of the night with a loaded rifle shooting his family while they are a sleep...

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by PsnaP

Does anyone else find it disturbing that he shot his dad through his mouth? He must have been asleep, how do you let someone stick a rifle in your mouth without a struggle.

There must have been something going on with that kid. Its too bad that no one caught on to him before hand. Im wondering if he played video games, head shots?? Makes me sick to think of him slinking around his house in the middle of the night with a loaded rifle shooting his family while they are a sleep...

Video games are the lamest excuse in the book. Millions of kids play video games and don't go on murderous rampages.

[PsnaP]

I wasnt using it as an excuse, but why would he stick the gun in his dads mouth and pull the trigger? Where did he learn that from... movies perhaps?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by PsnaP

I wasnt using it as an excuse, but why would he stick the gun in his dads mouth and pull the trigger? Where did he learn that from... movies perhaps?

Well we don't actually know that he stuck the gun in his mouth, but even if he did... you don't need to "learn" how to do that.

Maybe this kid played Call of Duty relentlessly and loved Reservoir Dogs. Or maybe he'd never played a video game or seen anything other than Disney movies.

I don't think either scenario would surprise us. Would it? Shooting your dad and your grandma is so goddamn crazy I don't think you can pin it on anything other than something in this kid's brain.

[T@T]

The 2nd amendment should be destroyed.

In a resent 24 hour span 10 cops were shot in the USA. I highly doubt you could find an single year in Canada where 10 cops were shot...sadly this will change as these american guns get smuggled here.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/24...n-blue/?hpt=T2