Should/Will the Flames keep Ward

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

It literally is the mandate from ownership.

It has been since Sutter was the GM. When Feaster took over, I listened intently to his first press conference, hoping like hell to hear something fresh. And nope, mandate is playoffs every year. That's what ownership asked of the GM when he came in. So no fresh approach, no rebuild, no sell-off. Playoffs or bust. Every year.

Sutter sold off draft picks for players to hold this line. Feaster walked into an empty closet and had to sort it out AND keep the team in the playoffs. The mess he walked into was unbelievable. And he did... okay... at sorting it out. There's a few obvious things he totally blew too. And Tre still had some bad contracts and bad players to unload or wait out. And the mandate the whole time is "make the playoffs". Ken King was absolutely transparent about this in many interviews. It's the philosophy of an ownership group that knows fans will show up year after year. It's not that they don't WANT to win, they do. But they won't make any sacrifices to do it, they didn't trade Iginla while he had value. They won't trade Gio while he has value. They won't take a step back to take 2 steps forward. They haven't in 20 years.

The mandate is to try and win. This extends to even when the team isn't very good. Not sure how anyone can claim a mandate to try and win means they don't want to win.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

There are 5 teams that's have sputtered worse than Calgary.

5.

If you're one more of the worst 6 teams in the league and had made the least amount of draft picks of any of them, just what level compared to peers do you think that is?

It might be THE WORST team in the league at that point.

'not a model franchise', is probably not the most fitting critique someone could come up with.

18th in points in the standings in the last five years which kind of fits my pretty casual comment.

They aren't at the top, they're not at the bottom.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

The mandate is to try and win. This extends to even when the team isn't very good. Not sure how anyone can claim a mandate to try and win means they don't want to win.

They want to win their way only. They don’t want to do what it actually takes to win.

“Make the playoffs and anything can happen” seems about as close to this organization’s mantra as there could be.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

They want to win their way only. They don’t want to do what it actually takes to win.

“Make the playoffs and anything can happen” seems about as close to this organization’s mantra as there could be.

Just love how the casual fan knows what the ownership and management want, think and what their mantra is.

This is pretty simple stuff.

You either like Treliving or you don't. You want him back or you don't.

But lets not pretend that these guys don't want to win a cup, or succeed.

Seems silly to me.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

18th in points in the standings in the last five years which kind of fits my pretty casual comment.

They aren't at the top, they're not at the bottom.

Who are the flames peer group at the bottom of the list in terms of lack of draft picks when you did your analysis?

I don't know if you posted about it as I can't seem to find it.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Who are the flames peer group at the bottom of the list in terms of lack of draft picks when you did your analysis?

I don't know if you posted about it as I can't seem to find it.

I don't think you get to give me homework assignments.

Strange Brew said it's fair to compare the team against it's peers. I said they're a bubble team and have been one, and with that there are worse teams out there.

I think 18th proves that out.

[Flash Walken]

lol, homework assignments. You don't have that info at your finger tips?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They certainly haven't built a team that can win in the playoffs, no point in arguing that.

And having a Treliving must go angle is certainly an acceptable response when the core he's largely built stalls.

But making the playoffs essentially 3 of the last 4 years and 4 of the last 6 must have some positives in comparison to the 30 other franchises.

For sure there are some positives, we don’t need to be in despair mode. Making the playoffs counts for something but guess i’d have hoped for more given the young talent from a few years ago and the number of win now moves that have been made.

I think Flash is right about talent evaluation at the pro level being a real issue with the organization currently.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

They want to win their way only. They don’t want to do what it actually takes to win.

“Make the playoffs and anything can happen” seems about as close to this organization’s mantra as there could be.

How dare they refuse to tank.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just love how the casual fan knows what the ownership and management want, think and what their mantra is.

This is pretty simple stuff.

You either like Treliving or you don't. You want him back or you don't.

But lets not pretend that these guys don't want to win a cup, or succeed.

Seems silly to me.

Sorry, should I have wrapped that in “In my opinion” tags to clarify that I’m not psychic? Being on a fan forum where the whole point is for people to discuss their opinions and observations on the team we cheer for I guess I assumed that part didn’t need to be qualified.

This is based on 30 years of history and quotes from management stating that this is their philosophy. “Make the playoffs and anything can happen” comes directly from both Darryl and Feaster, and I have to believe the same is true of Treliving based on his moves. It seems to be fairly well established that this organization is happy to set the bar at just making the dance.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

lol, homework assignments. You don't have that info at your finger tips?

Don't you?

I'm simply stating they are a bubble team. Have stated that three times. Looking at total points over 5 years proves that out.

I don't need to look into draft picks to change that simple summary. If you want to you can certainly feel free though!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Sorry, should I have wrapped that in “In my opinion” tags to clarify that I’m not psychic? Being on a fan forum where the whole point is for people to discuss their opinions and observations on the team we cheer for I guess I assumed that part didn’t need to be qualified.

This is based on 30 years of history and quotes from management stating that this is their philosophy. “Make the playoffs and anything can happen” comes directly from both Darryl and Feaster, and I have to believe the same is true of Treliving based on his moves.

You can do whatever you want.

However that opens up others to respond to someone seeming to have the inner thinking of a group of individuals that they don't have access too.

I'd imagine they clearly want to make the playoffs every year. That's revenue.

But to think that's all they want, or they refuse to think the way you know they need to is silly.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

How dare they refuse to tank.

It's not even about tanking, it's trying to buy their way into a mature asset like it's an established well site instead of doing any of the legwork necessary in developing that well site.

That strategy probably works fine in the energy game, but the NHL is zero sum and it's not surprising at all that spending the most high value picks in the league in the last 5 years has only garnered the 18th most regular season wins in that time frame.

It has happened across how many general managers now? 4?

I'd love to see how where the flames rank in high value picks dealt post lockout. I'm willing to bet that the Flames are the worst high value drafting team in the entire NHL over the last 15 years.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Crown Royal

How dare they refuse to tank.

It is not "tank". All I am asking is that the thing be run logically and efficiently. Less sentimentality, maximize value, no short-termism, don't waste money. That's not tank - that's just competence. I know it is much harder to do "Patriots" in the NHL.
"Make the playoffs" is actually too low of a bar. "Be top 5" every year should be the bar. Do what it takes initially (even if it involves a rebuild) and then stay there. Basically, try to be SJ. SJ blew it toward the end with Karlsson, etc, but they gave themselves a chance to win for a decade. The fact that they didnt close it out is unfortunate (for them), but all you can do is give yourself a good shot. And they did it without generational talent just through competence.

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You can do whatever you want.

However that opens up others to respond to someone seeming to have the inner thinking of a group of individuals that they don't have access too.

I'd imagine they clearly want to make the playoffs every year. That's revenue.

But to think that's all they want, or they refuse to think the way you know they need to is silly.

I explicitly stated that I think they want to win. I think the ownership wants to win. I think Tre wants to win. I think the players want to win.

But there's a disconnect in wanting to win (the cup) and doing what is necessary to do so. I want a Corvette, that would be amazing. Am I willing to work an extra 30 hours a week for one? No. Flames are not willing to have a period where they don't make the playoffs. So they draft 17th every year and stay right where they are in the standings, every year - a bubble-ish team that can't get farther than a round against other bubblish teams.

This isn't speculation. I remember Feaster saying the mandate was playoffs. Was he lying? Sutter said the same thing when he was GM, and his moves reflect it. "Let's win right now." That's not the same as "Let's build a great, stable team." I think the Flames ownership group has been totally transparent about this mandate, and I don't feel like I'm stretching the truth about it or making anything up. I've posted in this vein many times. The trouble with the organization is that philosophically, the mandate from ownership is wrong. Do I have that written on a piece of paper, a note from Murray Edwards to Jay Feaster? No. Has it been said by GMs and Presidents from time to time? Yes, absolutely.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

I explicitly stated that I think they want to win. I think the ownership wants to win. I think Tre wants to win. I think the players want to win.

But there's a disconnect in wanting to win (the cup) and doing what is necessary to do so. I want a Corvette, that would be amazing. Am I willing to work an extra 30 hours a week for one? No. Flames are not willing to have a period where they don't make the playoffs. So they draft 17th every year and stay right where they are in the standings, every year - a bubble-ish team that can't get farther than a round against other bubblish teams.

This isn't speculation. I remember Feaster saying the mandate was playoffs. Was he lying? Sutter said the same thing when he was GM, and his moves reflect it. "Let's win right now." That's not the same as "Let's build a great, stable team." I think the Flames ownership group has been totally transparent about this mandate, and I don't feel like I'm stretching the truth about it or making anything up. I've posted in this vein many times. The trouble with the organization is that philosophically, the mandate from ownership is wrong. Do I have that written on a piece of paper, a note from Murray Edwards to Jay Feaster? No. Has it been said by GMs and Presidents from time to time? Yes, absolutely.

Exhibit #1 for why the draft lottery system should have more even odds across all teams.

The mandate for all teams "should" be to make the playoffs every year at a bare minimum. It's a flaw in the drafting rules that makes it so this isn't always the low-bar for every team.

I get why it was like that before the salary cap and when teams held a player's rights into their 30s, but those days are over. Parity was achieved and a heavily weighted draft lottery is now counter to parity. The difference between a a playoff team and non-playoff team is not what it used to be and rewarding non-playoff teams is overkill.

The league has made changes in the right direction regarding this, but it still needs tweaking.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

I explicitly stated that I think they want to win. I think the ownership wants to win. I think Tre wants to win. I think the players want to win.

But there's a disconnect in wanting to win (the cup) and doing what is necessary to do so. I want a Corvette, that would be amazing. Am I willing to work an extra 30 hours a week for one? No. Flames are not willing to have a period where they don't make the playoffs. So they draft 17th every year and stay right where they are in the standings, every year - a bubble-ish team that can't get farther than a round against other bubblish teams.

This isn't speculation. I remember Feaster saying the mandate was playoffs. Was he lying? Sutter said the same thing when he was GM, and his moves reflect it. "Let's win right now." That's not the same as "Let's build a great, stable team." I think the Flames ownership group has been totally transparent about this mandate, and I don't feel like I'm stretching the truth about it or making anything up. I've posted in this vein many times. The trouble with the organization is that philosophically, the mandate from ownership is wrong. Do I have that written on a piece of paper, a note from Murray Edwards to Jay Feaster? No. Has it been said by GMs and Presidents from time to time? Yes, absolutely.

Wasn't responding to you at all.

I don't disagree to be honest.

Wanting to make the playoffs every year is totally fine as a goal, but if you slide into that bottom 1/3 you need to shift gears to adding the assets needed to get back to the top 1/3, and not just to the middle.

The problem with the Treliving window was that surprise playoff team in 2015 in my mind. They were on the methodical build plan until they felt they were close.

Turns out they weren't.

But honestly when they added Frolik and Hamilton to that team I thought they were closer than they were as well.

[dino7c]

The Flames were the #1 seed last season and would have been in a divisional spot this year. They aren't trying to squeak into the playoffs. Obviously they need to improve once they get there but it's not time to throw in the towel. Make big moves and IMPROVE the team. Calling for scorched earth right now is dumb IMO.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The Flames were the #1 seed last season and would have been in a divisional spot this year. They aren't trying to squeak into the playoffs. Obviously they need to improve once they get there but it's not time to throw in the towel. Make big moves and IMPROVE the team. Calling for scorched earth right now is dumb IMO.

I'm pretty sure they just barely squeaked into the playoffs this year.
Couldn't have been much closer.

[Crown Royal]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

It is not "tank". All I am asking is that the thing be run logically and efficiently. Less sentimentality, maximize value, no short-termism, don't waste money. That's not tank - that's just competence. I know it is much harder to do "Patriots" in the NHL.
"Make the playoffs" is actually too low of a bar. "Be top 5" every year should be the bar. Do what it takes initially (even if it involves a rebuild) and then stay there. Basically, try to be SJ. SJ blew it toward the end with Karlsson, etc, but they gave themselves a chance to win for a decade. The fact that they didnt close it out is unfortunate (for them), but all you can do is give yourself a good shot. And they did it without generational talent just through competence.

So exactly what the Flames are trying to do.

The Sharks didn't regularly move guys just because they got older, they re-signed guys over and over again. They didn't move their top guys that were labeled as playoff chokers, they were all re-signed until they couldn't afford them any more. Much like Detroit did in their heyday.

The Sharks also got extremely lucky in the Thornton and Burns trades.

What they have done is EXTREMELY difficult.