Flames at Pride reaction

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Serapth

and the other side

Think about that for a minute or two. I firmly lump you in the "you either agree or you are a bigot" camp.

Understand now?

Jesus Christ. I'm on that other side and you said that side had a lot of bigots directly after quoting my post. If your intent wasn't to label me a bigot, it's not a reading comprehension issue, it's a failure on your part to clarify what you wrote.

Originally Posted by Serapth

That is the problem with these kinds of conversations, when one side is full of people with the argument "you either agree or you are a bigot" and the other side actually has a lot of bigots, the internet doesn't have the nuance to have any sort of meaningful conversation.

Seriously, you can't skirt around this. Who are these bigots on the other side, if not me? WHO are you referencing here?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Serapth

The first I certainly did, and pre edited post was certainly much more insulting. It's neither here nor there in the end, I'm not particularly insulted and I am assuming you aren't either, so we can let sleeping dogs lie if you wish.

On the later point, I didn't insinuate that you were a bigot. I said that what makes these conversations incredibly hard to have is the fact that the opposing side ( not yours, those you oppose ) often is full of bigots. Essentially what I was saying is, one side believes their point is the one true point, while the other side is full of bigots, making any meaningful conversation pointless.

I edited ONE word. The edited section went from (or yes, I will think you're a homophobe) to (or yes, I might think you're a homophobe)

[Schraderbrau]

I think it is great to see the Flames in our community supporting any and all initiatives, we should be very proud of this organization for all they do and support. This includes the pride parade.

On a side note it shames me to see other CPers attack those who don't agree with this and call them homophobic just because they see an issue with it. You opened a thread wanting people's opinions. Don't attack them for giving their opinion.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Jesus Christ. I'm on that other side and you said that side had a lot of bigots directly after quoting my post. If your intent wasn't to label me a bigot, it's not a reading comprehension issue, it's a failure on your part to clarify what you wrote.



Seriously, you can't skirt around this. Who are these bigots on the other side, if not me? WHO are you referencing here?

Sigh, NO YOU ARE NOT. Are you against the pride movement?

The bigots on the other side are the ones that are in fact motivated by hatred of gays. What I am saying is, these conversations can't work because on one side you have a lot of people that respond to any comments with yells of bigotry, while the other side is often full of actual bigots.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

I think it is great to see the Flames in our community supporting any and all initiatives, we should be very proud of this organization for all they do and support. This includes the pride parade.

On a side note it shames me to see other CPers attack those who don't agree with this and call them homophobic just because they see an issue with it. You opened a thread wanting people's opinions. Don't attack them for giving their opinion.

Succinctly and excellently said. What I tried to say myself and failed badly.

[Hackey]

So being gay is comparable to dressing goth?

[Schraderbrau]

Originally Posted by Hackey

So being gay is comparable to dressing goth?

Heck no, being gay is not a choice, it's who you are.

Dressing Goth is a cry for attention because you don't feel like your mom hugged you enough. Don't attack me that hug comment was a joke in a terrible attempt to defuse this time bomb of a thread.

[DeGray]

Please check out this link to see why it is important that the Flames do things like the Pride Parade.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13536127

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Sigh, NO YOU ARE NOT. Are you against the pride movement?

The bigots on the other side are the ones that are in fact motivated by hatred of gays. What I am saying is, these conversations can't work because on one side you have a lot of people that respond to any comments with yells of bigotry, while the other side is often full of actual bigots.

My bad, I read it as you felt there were two sides to the pro gay movement.

I guess it was reading issue on my part. I am a man who can admit when I'm wrong. Normally I don't have issues with those sorts of things, I guess I just got my back up. Sorry for that part of the argument, that is on me.

I will say that if one side is full of bigots it does seem understandable that the other side yells 'bigot!'. For me it's not worth trying to figure out the motivation because it mostly is bigotry and it is legitimately difficult to tell the difference. Usually I just ignore this kind of stuff, I guess I'm in a bad mood or something this morning lol.

[Huntingwhale]

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

On a side note it shames me to see other CPers attack those who don't agree with this and call them homophobic just because they see an issue with it. You opened a thread wanting people's opinions. Don't attack them for giving their opinion.

What a strange position. This is a discussion forum. It's entire raison d'être is to discuss one another's position. If someone posts "the Oilers are good", they can expect a torrent of responses disagreeing and providing reasons why Edmonton is in fact no good. Why should this thread be any different?

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

My bad, I read it as you felt there were two sides to the pro gay movement.

I guess it was reading issue on my part. I am a man who can admit when I'm wrong. Normally I don't have issues with those sorts of things, I guess I just got my back up. Sorry for that part of the argument, that is on me.

I will say that if one side is full of bigots it does seem understandable that the other side yells 'bigot!'. For me it's not worth trying to figure out the motivation because it mostly is bigotry and it is legitimately difficult to tell the difference. Usually I just ignore this kind of stuff, I guess I'm in a bad mood or something this morning lol.

It is understandable, but it's also dangerous.

This one is a no brainer for 99.9% of us, but eventually gender politics do get into very tricky areas and when that happens we can't have one side yelling bigot, nor can we have the other side afraid to stand up because they fear being viewed as a bigot.


One very common example, and an area that is very tricky, is transgender bathroom usage. There was an example just last week where a born male transgender teenage student started using the womens bathroom.

This suddenly is a much trickier conversation, but you see much the same approach, one side is composed of bigots and the other side is full of people yelling bigot. The problem is, if we have a bunch of people on one side yelling bigot, while the other is yelling "god hates f@#$", we get nowhere.


The problem is, we have built our modern society around gender separation, be it marriage to communal showers in locker rooms. The answer to almost all gender issues is to move away from these patterns ( gender neutral locker rooms, gender neutral sports, gender neutral legal rights ) and in time we will get there. But it is going to require a hell of a lot of conversation, and if both sides just yell at each other, that is never going to happen.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Serapth

It is understandable, but it's also dangerous.

This one is a no brainer for 99.9% of us, but eventually gender politics do get into very tricky areas and when that happens we can't have one side yelling bigot, nor can we have the other side afraid to stand up because they fear being viewed as a bigot.


One very common example, and an area that is very tricky, is transgender bathroom usage. There was an example just last week where a born male transgender teenage student started using the womens bathroom.

This suddenly is a much trickier conversation, but you see much the same approach, one side is composed of bigots and the other side is full of people yelling bigot. The problem is, if we have a bunch of people on one side yelling bigot, while the other is yelling "god hates f@#$", we get nowhere.


The problem is, we have built our modern society around gender separation, be it marriage to communal showers in locker rooms. The answer to almost all gender issues is to move away from these patterns ( gender neutral locker rooms, gender neutral sports, gender neutral legal rights ) and in time we will get there. But it is going to require a hell of a lot of conversation, and if both sides just yell at each other, that is never going to happen.

Yeah I agree with most of that. Unfortunately the only thing that's going to truly get us to the next level is time. How far we've come as a society in the last two decades is nothing short of remarkable. Debating hasn't been the main reason rather the newest generations just seem a lot more accepting for whatever reason. There are reasons obviously but most weren't debated into believing what they do. If we continue on this path I have no doubt that we will get where we want to go, it's just a matter of time.

[Schraderbrau]

Originally Posted by Makarov

What a strange position. This is a discussion forum. It's entire raison d'être is to discuss one another's position. If someone posts "the Oilers are good", they can expect a torrent of responses disagreeing and providing reasons why Edmonton is in fact no good. Why should this thread be any different?

You are not dragging me into this absolute mess of a thread. No comment.

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Yeah I agree with most of that. Unfortunately the only thing that's going to truly get us to the next level is time. How far we've come as a society in the last two decades is nothing short of remarkable. Debating hasn't been the main reason rather the newest generations just seem a lot more accepting for whatever reason. There are reasons obviously but most weren't debated into believing what they do. If we continue on this path I have no doubt that we will get where we want to go, it's just a matter of time.

I generally agree. I think the world is a more tolerant place than it was 10 years ago and I think that's a good thing. I think the world will be a more tolerant place in 10 years, and I also think that's a good thing.


On the other hand, the issues aren't all black and white, like the earlier mentioned bathroom situation. There already exist current day decisions I think are wrong headed ( hate laws... first degree murder is first degree murder... killing someone for having ginger hair or being a Habs fan is just as vile as killing someone for being gay IMHO ). These are the items we need to be able to have discussions about.


Obviously this is a FARRRRR FARRRRR FARRRRRRRRR stretch from the Flames organization supporting the Flames. I personally don't have any issue with it, but it scares me when I see group think shouting down those that do. If we can't talk about something as trivial as this, how are we ever going to have the important conversations?

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Can anyone seriously answer how having an issue with the flames being in the pride parade can possibly be anything but homophobia? I'm racking my brain trying to figure it out but haven't been able to think of anything.

One could believe that politics have no place in sports. That would not be a homophobia.

[Hackey]

How is this even politics though? They announced they were attending an event like they always do and they changed their profile picture like they have for other events or causes. Is the profile picture really that big of an issue? I can't even comprehend why someone would care unless they have an issue with homosexuality. What exactly are they supporting that is so controversial or wrong or subjective in your eyes? I see a miniscule amount of support for acceptance, equality, and understanding and that's all I took it as.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

One could believe that politics have no place in sports. That would not be a homophobia.

It does raise the question: is attending a pride affair really a political act? Should it be seen as one?

(I'm not sure what the answer to those two questions should be.)

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

One could believe that politics have no place in sports. That would not be a homophobia.

I wonder if such a person would be against MLB's Jackie Robinson day? That argument would be a seriously uphill battle but I'm sure many have given it the old college try.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I wonder if such a person would be against MLB's Jackie Robinson day? That argument would be a seriously uphill battle but I'm sure many have given it the old college try.

I'm not a racist, but I don't agree with having [insert name] Days in sports.