Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Reggie Dunlop]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The Northerners will never forget.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ena-1.4313740?

Post of the year.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't think they do. You may think Ken King is full of ####, and that's fine, but he has repeatedly stated that this chapter is over and its time to move on. The owners of the team are pretty committed when they make a decision, and the decision appears to have been made. I just hope the fans will accept the path the ownership has charted moving forward, and all possible outcomes.

I think that means that for the foreseeable future the Flames plan to operate out of the Saddledome and will do so with a self-imposed budget. This means that the days of paying to the cap are probably done and it will result in operational changes for the team in the future. If that means that they can no longer afford players, so be it, those players will be cast aside (its been nice knowing you Mr. Backlund) and there will be no possibility of increasing the funds available, even short term. If the team can't compete, that is an outcome (expected) they will deal with downstream.

If, as a result of operational challenges, the team is no longer generating revenues or appears to be profitable as a result of the economic conditions affecting the club, the owners will call it a day and look for someone else to assume the ownership of the hockey team. I'm sure they will look locally, but based on the economics of building, finding a local owner may not be easy. It may be much easier to find an owner elsewhere who has desires of moving the team to where they can be a second tenant for their building. I think this is a much more likely outcome than finding local ownership, unless the citizens of Calgary want to go Green Bay Packer and publicly own the team.

I just don't see the owners coming back to the negotiation table as it appears they believe there is nothing left to negotiate. The idea is dead, and its time to move on. Now its just a matter of nature taking its course.

You think they would be dumb enough to wait until the team is at its worst and then sell?


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[Major Major]

Originally Posted by New Era

You don't have to believe me. I'm not even asking you to believe me. The only thing you have to believe is that Ken King is a representative of the owners and does exactly what he is told, especially by Murray Edwards. If Murray Edwards has directed him to end the process, its done. The only way he'll circle back is if the other side falls on its sword. You can ask anyone who has negotiated with Edwards, when he says we're done, we're done. Speaking from experience, if Edwards looks you in the eye and says #### you, you're ####ed. He rarely wastes time on deals he thinks can't be made nor does he circle back. He's a guy that believes in moving forward at all times. This is the reason why I think King was serious when he said they are moving in a different direction. Could I be wrong? Certainly. But look at Edwards' behaviors in his other business dealings. That will tell you all you need to know.

Maybe you know Murray or have some dealings with him, or just know his reputation, but as someone who wouldn't even know him if I saw him, just observing the handling of this debacle from the flames side of things, I'd say that you are giving him too much credit. Yes, if you walk away from the table, you had better be prepared to stay there. I think that's common sense without having to be a billionaire.

So, then, what's his end game? Political leverage? Backfired. Anyone could have told you that was going to happen. If that's the case, he's an idiot. Pick up and move the team? He'll never make the money anywhere where he will potentially make it here. Besides the fact that there are other stakeholders and contractual obligations. If that's the case, he's an idiot. Sell the team to an investor from another city? Maybe, but it's nonsense from a league point of view. It would look amateurish and the only thing that bettman and the BoG would get out of that is hundreds of millions in losses and to raise the middle finger to a mayor that 2/3 of them have never heard of. If that's the case, he's an idiot. Sell the team to a local investor? What are you waiting for? Do you have to cry about it so loud on the way out?

Maybe with your insight, you know another option, but I'm not seeing any. In fact, it seems pretty transparent that this was a shameless and desperate ditch effort that will result to crawling back to the table once nenshi gets 80% of the total vote and negotiating off the city's deal. King will brag about getting the talks going again, and Murray will never be seen or heard from again (or since or ever). What a businessman and Calgarian! Yawn

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Jacks

I guess I'll be the voice of dissent again.
Making wisecracks about edmonton and their crappy hockey team on a Flames forum is fair game IMO, hell it's fun. Going on the CBC in front of a national audience and trashing the city and it's residents goes too far, makes us look petty and rude. I'd bet money that if you polled people across the country they'd say this sort of thing reflects badly on Calgary's image.

Pretty sure any poll would still just reflect poorly on Edmonton.

[JerryUnderscore]

Here's a list of all the teams that moved since expansion starting in 1967:

California Golden Seals --> Cleveland Barons (1976) --> Minnesota North Stars (1978*)
Kansas City Scouts --> Colorado Rockies (1976) --> New Jersey Devils (1982)
Atlanta Flames --> Calgary Flames (1980)
Minnesota North Stars -- Dallas Stars (1993)
Quebec Nordiques --> Colorado Avalanche (1995)
Winnipeg Jets --> Arizona Coyotes (1996)
Hartford Whalers --> Carolina Hurricanes (1997)
Atlanta Thrashers --> Winnipeg Jets (2011)

*Cleveland merged into the already existing Minnesota North Stars organization.


In the last 20 years there has been exact one team moved. This is in spite of the fact that teams like Arizona, Florida, Carolina, and New York Islanders, among others, can't seem to turn a profit or sell tickets. The NHL considers moving a team the absolute last resort.

As much as the Flames owners can bemoan their inability to make money they're still doing quite well, all things considered. Saying they can't make money in the Saddledome and can't afford to build a building on their own is a ploy. They might not be able to afford to build it entirely on their on (I think Bingo has done a decent job showing that), but they're not losing money right now.

Furthermore, the city has consistently said they're still willing to negotiate and that their offer was not a final offer. The city is clearly willing to put money into the arena and wants the Flames in Calgary.

The team isn't moving and eventually a new arena will be built for the team with a combination of public and private money.

[Redlan]

I find it interesting, and quite frankly ridiculous, that there are some posters that repeat ad nauseum that they are incredulous of the Flames information yet lap up a politician's word as the gospel. It is also very interesting that there is at least one poster that has yet to actually post in a hockey related thread yet is only active in political discussion - Nenshi and his henchmen make social media their bitch. The mayor can be trusted no more and no less than the Flames, the difference being, he is a lot better at this.


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[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I find it interesting, and quite frankly ridiculous, that there are some posters that repeat ad nauseum that they are incredulous of the Flames information yet lap up a politician's word as the gospel. It is also very interesting that there is at least one poster that has yet to actually post in a hockey related thread yet is only active in political discussion - Nenshi and his henchmen make social media their bitch. The mayor can be trusted no more and no less than the Flames, the difference being, he is a lot better at this.


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I don't really agree with most of your post, but you nailed the bolded part.

[Matty81]

I am curious as to where public opinion stands on the likely outcome now. I've moved from thinking this was a negiotiating move to feeling like there might not be a resolution to this. The only scenario I see the flames staying is if they wait long enough for nenshi to leave it has gotten so personal. Kills me as the flames are doing a terrible job here but if they leave I would be gutted regardless.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Matty81

I am curious as to where public opinion stands on the likely outcome now. I've moved from thinking this was a negiotiating move to feeling like there might not be a resolution to this. The only scenario I see the flames staying is if they wait long enough for nenshi to leave it has gotten so personal. Kills me as the flames are doing a terrible job here but if they leave I would be gutted regardless.

Again, and again, and again:

If this really is the end of arena negotiations, CESC will sell the Flames, not move them.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Again, and again, and again:

If this really is the end of arena negotiations, CESC will sell the Flames, not move them.

Who owns the flames is not something I am concerned with beyond how it impacts whether the flames stay in calgary or not.

If they are sold, moving or staying (and eventually getting new building) are still the same two possible outcomes that matter most to me. Don't care if Murray Edwards owns them or not.

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by Redlan

I find it interesting, and quite frankly ridiculous, that there are some posters that repeat ad nauseum that they are incredulous of the Flames information yet lap up a politician's word as the gospel. It is also very interesting that there is at least one poster that has yet to actually post in a hockey related thread yet is only active in political discussion - Nenshi and his henchmen make social media their bitch. The mayor can be trusted no more and no less than the Flames, the difference being, he is a lot better at this.


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The guy who spent much of today utterly incapable/unwilling of understanding the general benefit of city services because they don't cater to his own, selfish, individual, in the moment needs now says anyone talking about an arena issue who isn't interested in flexing nuts over Gio's shot stats has to be on nenshis payroll. Well, you chose the word 'ridiculous'.

There's absolutely nothing stopping you from going to skyscraperpage and making your perspective on an overarching, civic project that affects every single taxpayer in this city known to them from the view a flames fan. I can't say whether it'll be taken seriously considering your self-centered theories on urban development but the option is always open to you.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Matty81

Who owns the flames is not something I am concerned with beyond how it impacts whether the flames stay in calgary or not.

If they are sold, moving or staying (and eventually getting new building) are still the same two possible outcomes that matter most to me. Don't care if Murray Edwards owns them or not.

Ok, well different ownership changes everything (including the entire negotiation process) so it makes little sense to believe the two most likely scenarios are A. Wait out Nenshi or B. Leave regardless of who the team is sold to. That was my only point.

The second most likely scenario is and always has been the CESC selling to a group that can work with the city. The first (of course) being a deal between the two current groups.

Leaving is not even worth mentioning at this point.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But in 5-7 years when the Dome is really garbage, and the Flames aren't a high revenue team (if they even are), you really think a big American city with a brand new stadium wouldn't be attractive?

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I think the window is shorter, 3 - 4 years.

What exactly do you think is going to happen in that time frame?

The Flames have left the table because the deal offered by the city is not appealing enough relative to their baseline. And their baseline is the Saddledome, not Seattle or wherever else.

Should the Saddledome's revenue capacity somehow deteriorate, then the difference between it and a new arena may become sufficient for the city's offer to start looking good. (There could also be a some kind of positive shift, like technology that makes arenas cheaper, that brings them back.)

[White Out 403]

God, I can't stand Eric Francis right now. What Fox News quality reporting he's doing. His opinions are such trash; he said on the radio that the Flames could leave and that he didn't think the NHL would ever come back. FFS. Winnipeg got a team back, and Calgary which is twice the size would never get a team back? Be up front about your total allegiance to the Flames management group in this dispute, but don't pretend to be somewhere in the middle.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

The guy who spent much of today utterly incapable/unwilling of understanding the general benefit of city services because they don't cater to his own, selfish, individual, in the moment needs now says anyone talking about an arena issue who isn't interested in flexing nuts over Gio's shot stats has to be on nenshis payroll. Well, you chose the word 'ridiculous'.



There's absolutely nothing stopping you from going to skyscraperpage and making your perspective on an overarching, civic project that affects every single taxpayer in this city known to them from the view a flames fan. I can't say whether it'll be taken seriously considering your self-centered theories on urban development but the option is always open to you.

Settle down keyboard warrior. I made 1 post today. No need to get so passive aggressive. I made an observation, never personally attached anyone and you come out swinging Gino's nuts at me?
Edit:
And since you are taking your time to review my posting history, note that I make reference to everyone pays taxes on services and infrastructure that they do not use. No need to turn that into a personal attack.

[Torture]

Nenshi on As it Happens (CBC). Starts around 10:30. Responding to Brett Wilson's take yesterday on As It Happens.

http://www.cbc.ca/listen/shows/as-it...isode/14203986

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

God, I can't stand Eric Francis right now. What Fox News quality reporting he's doing. His opinions are such trash; he said on the radio that the Flames could leave and that he didn't think the NHL would ever come back. FFS. Winnipeg got a team back, and Calgary which is twice the size would never get a team back? Be up front about your total allegiance to the Flames management group in this dispute, but don't pretend to be somewhere in the middle.

The Francis interview you’re talking about was disgusting. Just dishonest pandering and fear-mongering at the lowest level.

I’d believe that Francis was simply a completely biased yet independent columnist who dislikes Nenshi and loves having the Flames in Calgary (and thus, his job) at any cost.

I’d also believe that Francis was 100% in the pocket of the CESC with the mandate to go out, spread the word that it’s council that needs change and “leadership,” and inject a little bit of fear into the minds of the fans while pumping the owner’s tires.

I’d believe either, but what I don’t believe it that he is 100% neither, and the Lon he pretends to be 100% neither the more I distrust him and the worse he makes his already putrid reputation in the Calgary sport community.

Hopefully he enjoys flipping bacon at his Denny’s location once the Flames leave.

[boggledepot]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Listening to Eric Francis on the radio makes me want to slice my ears off.

Agreed, but from experience I've learnt to ignore Eric Francis. He has made a career of taking extreme stands on polarizing issues, but in the end does attract an audience. I have questioned, at points, whether Francis genuinely believes the opinions he puts forward, but he none-the-less he remains a Calgary institution. Every city needs a person like him, even if they are a total clown.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Redlan

Settle down keyboard warrior. I made 1 post today. No need to get so passive aggressive. I made an observation, never personally attached anyone and you come out swinging Gino's nuts at me?

This post is hilarious.