Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[you&me]

Originally Posted by calf

Average isn't the best metric - I hate when news stories quote averages. Median, or even a regional average is more relevant. If a class in Calgary has 35 students but a class of the same grade in Crossfield is 15, your average is 25, but that's not really helpful to the Calgary classroom..

I know that the stats nerds like to wax poetic about median vs. average any chance they get, but it helps to consider what you're replying to before jumping in. (Not calling you a stats nerd, per se, just that it seems likely someone's going to jump in any time average is mentioned).

You even said so yourself, that a "regional average is more relevant", so it seems that you would even agree; in the context of that statistic, average would be a fine metric... Since it was referring to the Toronto District School Board, which sounds pretty regional to me.

And even though there wasn't any other context in the article, it seems pretty safe to infer that if the TDSB measures class sizes against the ON provincial benchmark, then most likely the benchmark is measured per school division or school board, which would likely address the issue of averaging Calgary and Crossfield in the example you made... CBE would be one average, CSSD would be another and whatever-the-#### school board runs Crossfield would be another, etc etc, all measured against whatever benchmark the province set... But now we're veering into fantasy land, because we know the UCP would never set a class size benchmark hahaha

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Incorrect

What is the remedy if they fail to meet this obligation?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by you&me

I know that the stats nerds like to wax poetic about median vs. average any chance they get, but it helps to consider what you're replying to before jumping in. (Not calling you a stats nerd, per se, just that it seems likely someone's going to jump in any time average is mentioned).

You even said so yourself, that a "regional average is more relevant", so it seems that you would even agree; in the context of that statistic, average would be a fine metric... Since it was referring to the Toronto District School Board, which sounds pretty regional to me.

And even though there wasn't any other context in the article, it seems pretty safe to infer that if the TDSB measures class sizes against the ON provincial benchmark, then most likely the benchmark is measured per school division or school board, which would likely address the issue of averaging Calgary and Crossfield in the example you made... CBE would be one average, CSSD would be another and whatever-the-#### school board runs Crossfield would be another, etc etc, all measured against whatever benchmark the province set... But now we're veering into fantasy land, because we know the UCP would never set a class size benchmark hahaha

Another problem is how the denominator is calculated

If it’s class size = students divided by teachers that isn’t a real metric as it doesn’t account for prep time.

It also becomes interesting if librarians or VPs with teaching duties count as teachers in these calcs.

[Point Blank]

Originally Posted by GGG

Another problem is how the denominator is calculated

If it’s class size = students divided by teachers that isn’t a real metric as it doesn’t account for prep time.

It also becomes interesting if librarians or VPs with teaching duties count as teachers in these calcs.

Back when class sizes were reported, admin were counted in the denominator.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I work in the private sector and have unlimited paid sick days.

I work in the private sector, was unaware of a limit. But one of my staff had an issue where started bumping up against a soft limit (very legit illness), hr called me and asked me to talk to him about either collecting some short term disability benefits or knowing that he would be tapped out for sick days the rest of the year, and future illnesses would be vacation or unpaid.

I think there is always a limit.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by #-3

I work in the private sector, was unaware of a limit. But one of my staff had an issue where started bumping up against a soft limit (very legit illness), hr called me and asked me to talk to him about either collecting some short term disability benefits or knowing that he would be tapped out for sick days the rest of the year, and future illnesses would be vacation or unpaid.

I think there is always a limit.

My American owned company had a very defined 5 day limit. Americans absolutely loathe Canadian benefits that are normal here. I did short term for my surgery for my 2 months. It was pretty good $2500 per week tax free. RBC insurance would have totally allowed longer but I was feeling very guilty and came back way too soon.

[FacePaint]

I used to be the same way, getting frustrated and finding that one anecdote of a co-worker that was always sick. Then a good friend pointed out to me that maybe, just maybe, I should appreciate that I'm not sick... That I'm not unwell.

I would much rather be at work doing what I can in my craft to help out society and be paid a full wage. To think that most people would rather have a chronic illness is absurd and I would argue not healthy for the person making the accusation.

People abusing benefits and entitlements are few and far between. And funny enough it always seems to be a story from a friend of a friend.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Interesting - I’ve worked at a few schools and never encountered a person doing that. When I took short-term disability a few years ago for a chronic pain episode I was dealing with, I went back for 2 days and then was off again, and my 90 days never reset because it was the same medical condition.

This is a recent change to the rule. However, there are many who would have been taking advantage of it in unique ways. That being said unless you were an administrator then you likely don't know about them. I am also a few years out of the CBE now and after the change came into effect I want to say around 2016-2018 ish that you can't use the same exact physical ailment, there are still people who get around it with mental health concerns pushing the boundaries but htese are kept confidential as they should be. However, there are countless examples of this occurring, I will say that the vast majority 95% or above don't abuse it, but unfortunately with a board the size of the CBE it happens a lot. Especially at larger schools.

[WinnipegFan]

Originally Posted by Point Blank

Back when class sizes were reported, admin were counted in the denominator.

So were all of the people that work in the downtown office who never see a kid in their daily roles. This is why they all changed their titles to area "principles" or district "principles" so they could be counted in the denominator. The system was flawed to hide the class size issues. They existed at the high schools for decades but were hidden by the averages because the lower grades (and specialty programs) were still running smaller numbers. Now that they are increasing in size, the average (terrible number to use) starting going up.

[Calgary14]

When do the teacher's vote results get released?

[indes]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

When do the teacher's vote results get released?

Pretty sure I read 6:15pm today

[wireframe]

I have not found a single teacher in my extended circle that voted yes. Expecting a strike next week, right when I have to travel for business. Ouch.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by wireframe

I have not found a single teacher in my extended circle that voted yes. Expecting a strike next week, right when I have to travel for business. Ouch.

Thanks Sliver

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by wireframe

I have not found a single teacher in my extended circle that voted yes. Expecting a strike next week, right when I have to travel for business. Ouch.

As a parent it's hard not to side with teachers.

The biggest issue for me is that increasing class sizes have made a teachers job harder (more kids to control, more disruptive kids), more time consuming (test marking for example), and I suspect less fulfilling.

My own anecdotal, first hand experience is:
- 1980s: class sizes were from 16 to 25 students
- 2025: Class sizes of 30 to 33 for my children in elementary and junior high. I have heard anecdotally that classes are up to 40 in high school.

It's baffling that in the 1980s Alberta was so poor, but Getty kept the schools funded.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by GGG

It doesn’t come close to meeting class size requirements and has no mechanisms to guarantee class sizes remain below a certain amount or that EAs are reasonably distributed. It fails miserably on working conditions. 3000 teachers over 4 years is not meaningful. If you take 1.5% population growth that accounts for 60% of the positions leaving just a 4% reduction in class size or in a class of 30 1 student. We are saved!!!!

Do you have school aged kids right now? My conversations with parents have been unanimously in support of teachers striking. Including people saying I like Danielle Smith but…….

I read this as 3,000 in addition to additional teachers to account for population growth. The way I read it, suggest a 10% reduction in class size, which leaves class sizes looking reasonable at the end of the four year period.

Here is a quote from the CBC - "The 3,000 teachers would be in addition to those hired due to attrition, and in excess of the number of hires needed to cover enrolment growth"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ffer-1.7645282

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

As a parent it's hard not to side with teachers.

The biggest issue for me is that increasing class sizes have made a teachers job harder (more kids to control, more disruptive kids), more time consuming (test marking for example), and I suspect less fulfilling.

My own anecdotal, first hand experience is:
- 1980s: class sizes were from 16 to 25 students
- 2025: Class sizes of 30 to 33 for my children in elementary and junior high. I have heard anecdotally that classes are up to 40 in high school.

It's baffling that in the 1980s Alberta was so poor, but Getty kept the schools funded.

At that time the government valued education more than grifting. This current government is actively destroying education to enable grifting.

Corruption and incompetence use up a LOT of the budget nowadays.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I read this as 3,000 in addition to additional teachers to account for population growth. The way I read it, suggest a 10% reduction in class size, which leaves class sizes looking reasonable at the end of the four year period.

Here is a quote from the CBC - "The 3,000 teachers would be in addition to those hired due to attrition, and in excess of the number of hires needed to cover enrolment growth"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ffer-1.7645282

"In excess" could mean one more, not all 3000. They are basically saying there won't be a decrease in overall teachers per student population, and there could be anywhere from one more to 3000 more.

[GullFoss]

The more I think about it, its a darn good offer by the province. If this went to binding arbitration after a two week strike, I would envision the arbitrator imposing this exact deal.

In addition to this, the ATA has basically little to no money. The reason they waited until October 6 to strike is so that teachers could collect a paycheck lmao. How long is that going to last? A month at best?

Just take the offer, say you did it for the kids, talk #### about the UPC and live to fight another day. This isn't the hill to die on.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

"In excess" could mean one more, not all 3000. They are basically saying there won't be a decrease in overall teachers per student population, and there could be anywhere from one more to 3000 more.

Isn't it 3000 in excess of what's needed to keep up with enrollment growth...

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

The more I think about it, its a darn good offer by the province. If this went to binding arbitration after a two week strike, I would envision the arbitrator imposing this exact deal.

In addition to this, the ATA has basically little to no money. The reason they waited until October 6 to strike is so that teachers could collect a paycheck lmao. How long is that going to last? A month at best?

Just take the offer, say you did it for the kids, talk #### about the UPC and live to fight another day. This isn't the hill to die on.

Don't think so chief. Feel free to think about this even harder though.