MLB Free Agency Thread.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You aren't making any sense. At least qualify your answer a little bit. "Franchise player" is a nice tag to label someone and throw it around, but Wells hasn't done enough to achieve that sort of label.

Here is the reason "I" believe he is a Franchise player.

Wells is the face of the team
Wells is a gold glover
Wells is a 100 RBI type of a player
Wells is a 30 HR type of a player
Wells has speed

I am not sure what elements in the game Wells does not have.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You aren't making any sense. At least qualify your answer a little bit. "Franchise player" is a nice tag to label someone and throw it around, but Wells hasn't done enough to achieve that sort of label.

I am curious why you believe he is not a Franchise player?

[Sylvanfan]

Really how many players in their first 5 years in Baseball have driven in 100 runs 3 times, and hit .300 with 30 home runs and 100 RBI twice as well has winning 3 gold gloves. I don't think every team in baseball has a player like that. Wells will be heading into his prime age as well when he's eligible for free agency as well, which will also inflate his value for his next contract.

And yes Moon we all know Pujols has beat those standards, but he's more than a franchise player. He's a generational type hitter and there aren't 30 players like him in baseball, he's one of a kind. When it comes time for his next contract, he'll command A-Rod money. Really why are we even talking about Pujols in this thread. Maybe you should make a shrine to Pujols thread to keep yourself happy. I'll even go post in it that he'll likely be on Baseballs all century team in 2099 when they pick the best of the last 100 years.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by flambers

Here is the reason "I" believe he is a Franchise player.

Wells is the face of the team
Wells is a gold glover
Wells is a 100 RBI type of a player
Wells is a 30 HR type of a player
Wells has speed

I am not sure what elements in the game Wells does not have.

He doesn't have the bat in my opinion to carry this team. It is pretty good as far as CFs go, but it isn't amazing. To be a franchise player, you've got to be hitting 40+ homers and be getting on base A LOT more than Wells is.

Not to mention, where is the track record? He doesn't have one regarding his offense. Prior to this season he had 2 pretty average years, and was barely a top 10 CF in MLB.

Wells isn't the face of this team either. Roy Halladay is IMO.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

He doesn't have the bat in my opinion to carry this team. It is pretty good as far as CFs go, but it isn't amazing. To be a franchise player, you've got to be hitting 40+ homers and be getting on base A LOT more than Wells is.

Not to mention, where is the track record? He doesn't have one regarding his offense. Prior to this season he had 2 pretty average years, and was barely a top 10 CF in MLB.

Wells isn't the face of this team either. Roy Halladay is IMO.

I totally agree, I think your a little hard on JP, but Wells is a very good CF, but not deserving of the 6th best contract in MLB history. The only thing worse than losing a gold glover is to pay one too much then they find themselves comfortable with their new massive deal.

If they pay him this money and he falls off, the Jays are dead for 4 years.

[CaramonLS]

2005 - .269/.320/.463
2004 - .272/.337/.472


Would anyone be happy with those numbers for Vernon Wells? Because over the course of this contract, I wouldn't be expecting above and beyond 06 numbers non-stop.


To pay a guy the amount of money we're talking about, these years simply cannot happen.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Really how many players in their first 5 years in Baseball have driven in 100 runs 3 times, and hit .300 with 30 home runs and 100 RBI twice as well has winning 3 gold gloves. I don't think every team in baseball has a player like that. Wells will be heading into his prime age as well when he's eligible for free agency as well, which will also inflate his value for his next contract.

And yes Moon we all know Pujols has beat those standards, but he's more than a franchise player. He's a generational type hitter and there aren't 30 players like him in baseball, he's one of a kind. When it comes time for his next contract, he'll command A-Rod money. Really why are we even talking about Pujols in this thread. Maybe you should make a shrine to Pujols thread to keep yourself happy. I'll even go post in it that he'll likely be on Baseballs all century team in 2099 when they pick the best of the last 100 years.

Pujols was posted because I knew his salary and Beltrans off the top of my head. Sorry I brought him up. I will look at other guys salaries on the internet if it makes you happy.

Wells is a good player. I just don't think he is a guy that I would want to build my team around and spend 18 million on. I think that a team like the Jays would be better off spending that money elsewhere.

I think most teams have guys like that and some have more than one.

[Flames in 07]

and in 05, that was with Glaus protecting him.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

And yes Moon we all know Pujols has beat those standards, but he's more than a franchise player. He's a generational type hitter and there aren't 30 players like him in baseball, he's one of a kind. When it comes time for his next contract, he'll command A-Rod money. Really why are we even talking about Pujols in this thread. Maybe you should make a shrine to Pujols thread to keep yourself happy. I'll even go post in it that he'll likely be on Baseballs all century team in 2099 when they pick the best of the last 100 years.

I imagine by 2050 guys will be hitting 100+ HR's and .400 routinely with the advancements in technology,fitness etc. Guys the size of Howard, Pujos, Ortiz, Manny are becoming more and more regular without the help of steroids now and these guys are not only power hitters but decent contact hitters as well. I shudder to think of the athletes that will be around in 50 years. So I am not so sure about that All-century team just yet.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

He doesn't have the bat in my opinion to carry this team. It is pretty good as far as CFs go, but it isn't amazing. To be a franchise player, you've got to be hitting 40+ homers and be getting on base A LOT more than Wells is.

Not to mention, where is the track record? He doesn't have one regarding his offense. Prior to this season he had 2 pretty average years, and was barely a top 10 CF in MLB.

Wells isn't the face of this team either. Roy Halladay is IMO.

Okay, well what ever you want to call him In my opinion if he is a UFA in November of 2007. I will bet he will get this type of money in the Market place.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Wells isn't the face of this team either. Roy Halladay is IMO.

Thing is that Hallady pitches what 34-35 games a year, and he's had injury issues. Wells is that every day player that fans can go to the park and watch every day.

Depending on what Wells trade value is, I would entertain the notion of moving him. For all intensive purposes I think Thomas can replace some of the offensive loss right now. Rios can move over to centre and play similar defence and still put up decent numbers. Really if you could get a decent left handed hitting outfielder, and a some pitching help they should likely make the move.

A lineup of
Johnson
Rios
Overbay
Thomas
Glaus
Stairs
Hill
Zaun
Clayton

Would still put up a fair amount of Runs. Moreso if a good Left handed hitter can be acquired for Wells. So if you can get a guy who can pitch for you this year and a good prospect too it would be tempting.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

To be a franchise player, you've got to be hitting 40+ homers and be getting on base A LOT more than Wells is.


Wells isn't the face of this team either. Roy Halladay is IMO.

Those points are both simply a matter of opinion.

If somebody hits 40 homeruns a year, but sucks it up defensively, strikes out a ton, and can't hit for a decent average..would that make them a franchise player?

Wells is the 5 tool player. Plain and simple. Name the last Jay that was an all-around better play than him. I think you would have to go back quite a ways.

[RedHot25]

Well I think one thing with this is, if these rumours are true, we will know what Wells really thinks/wants to do. If he declines this deal, then to me he doesn't have any intention of staying in Toronto.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Jiggy_12

Those points are both simply a matter of opinion.

If somebody hits 40 homeruns a year, but sucks it up defensively, strikes out a ton, and can't hit for a decent average..would that make them a franchise player?

Depends what their OBP is - which is something Wells does not have. And yes, if Wells was putting up .400+ OBP numbers I'd be much more inclined to declare him a Franchise player.

But I think the player you are asking me about is Adam Dunn, and yes I'd consider him a more valuable player than Wells to the Bluejays because it adds a lot more power/obp to the lineup than Wells does and he can play on the corner, which is what Wells will be doing by the end of this contract if it ever gets signed.

I think Average is one of the most overrated and overused stats out there, and really doesn't give a good measure of a player.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

So if you can get a guy who can pitch for you this year and a good prospect too it would be tempting.

Well, the names of Brad Penny and Matt Kemp via the Dodgers have been thrown out there in the rumor department as far as Wells goes.

[Flames in 07]

OBP and Slg% is much more useful than batting average I agree.

another way to think about it is: on the FA market what would you rather have. Gil Menche and Lilly or Wells? Both cost about the same.

If you pick Wells, you have your franchise face, but nobody to start 4th and 5th, you can mail in 40% of your season. The pitchers aren't big names, but you can get by without a GG CF, who is all around a very good player but not spectacular OBP but you can't get by without a rotation.

[flames_1987]

I think average does matter, just not as much as people make it out to be. OBP percentage is now rated as a huge quality, which it should be and "Moneyball" only escilated that. However Vernon defintley makes up for that I beleive in being that 5 tool player that are so hard to come by. Someone that was home grown from day one, and if the Jays were able to re-sign him it would send a huge message to the rest of MLB that the Jays are going to be able to actually keep the stars that emerge from TO.

[flames_1987]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Well, the names of Brad Penny and Matt Kemp via the Dodgers have been thrown out there in the rumor department as far as Wells goes.

That trade to be honest makes me sick. Penny against the AL east, would be no better then a 4th or 5th starter. Kemp is a very good looking prospect, but not going to start contributing that much right away

[Flames in 07]

I think the message might be that they can't afford to keep anyone else if they sign him.

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I think the message might be that they can't afford to keep anyone else if they sign him.

How so? They offered the tandem of Lilly and Meche the same amount if not slightly more.

The Jays won't say what their salary is. Its anyone's guess. 90 mil?