What is middle class in Calgary?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But all the things listed above are jobs that require a specific skill/training, and don't always require university degrees (I'm guessing Architecture might?)

Yes and no. While you don't always need accreditation to work as such, the people who tend to be successful in the jobs I mentioned are typically the ones who undertake proper 4-year (or more) degree granting programs in them. The ones who take shortcuts, or go at it without proper training, tend to be stuck at the bottom rung long-term.

And yes, I think its important that they teach actual tangible skills and not just fluff. In that sense, the applied arts are very similar to the Trades, but in a different context...you come out of it with a skill or a craft.

All I'm saying is that not all Arts degrees are about feelings and expressing yourself. There are tangible skills there to build a career on.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

The issue is people leave school without a particular skill that makes them valuable, then the reach the 'real world' and quickly realize if you don't have a particular skill you can do that most people can not, it is hard to find someone to pay you !

To some extent this is a legacy of the 60s and 70s, when you could still get a university degree in pretty much anything and get hired and trained up in specific job skills. Many Boomers enjoyed that avenue to a middle-class livelihood, failed to notice that it closed off in the late 80s (as GenXers could have told them if they asked), and gave their Millennial kids bad education advice.

Now that the kids of Gen X are reaching the age for post-secondary education, we're seeing enrolment in the humanities fall off a cliff

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

I'll agree that the university structure needs an overhaul.

but there is so much ignorance in your post about the value of a university education and how a university operates, I'm not sure where to start.

Could you give some examples, I would like you to 'start'?


I went to U of C and got my 4 year bachelor degree so I'm not an anti-university person. I went, I finished, I partied, I slacked, and I got my magical degree. How much of what I learned did I ever use again? Very little. And I luckily did not go into debt during this 4 years.



Here is a decent article outlining the high level issues, almost all I touched on. Now it is even worst in America, but we are beginning to see the same effects up here.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancra.../#6d182a94fa87

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Could you give some examples, I would like you to 'start'?


I went to U of C and got my 4 year bachelor degree so I'm not an anti-university person. I went, I finished, I partied, I slacked, and I got my magical degree. How much of what I learned did I ever use again? Very little. And I luckily did not go into debt during this 4 years.



Here is a decent article outlining the high level issues, almost all I touched on. Now it is even worst in America, but we are beginning to see the same effects up here.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryancra.../#6d182a94fa87

What degree did you get?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It's funny, people always discount arts degrees, but some of the most successful people I know have them. Photographers, Interior Designers, Architects, Graphic Designers...you can make a healthy living in these fields if you're good at what you do. Fine Arts or something like a Philosophy degree? Sure, good luck with that. But if you get a degree that can be applied to business, there is legitimate opportunity out there.

And when the robots come for all our jerbs, they are some of the tougher ones to automate.

Sorry, I should clarify. I was referring to "Liberal Arts" programs in universities, which includes: humanities, social sciences, history, philosophy, non-applied sciences, etc...

At most universities, most undergrads (exceptions like Engineering) are either Bachelor of Science or Bachelor of Arts programs. When we refer to the "arts" degrees, we are referring to Bachelor of Arts degrees. You're talking more about applied arts or fine arts. Most of the careers you're referring to would require education in technical schools, which would have more in common with a trade than a Bachelor of Arts program at a University.

Even then, I don't think liberal arts programs are useless, we just have way too many students enrolled in them and the standards for passing them are way too low. The government needs to step in and say, we only need X amount of people with a sociology degree, so only X amounts of spots will be available. Instead, they allow unlimited amounts of students, it becomes like a 2nd highschool. The students leave totally unsatisfied with their job prospects, and our economy has to import labour with actual skills.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

I would say more blue collar vs white collar debate exists here because Alberta is a fantasy island bubble where blue collar workers can vastly out earn white collar workers in many cases.

In most of the rest of the world, blue collar work doesn't pay as much as white collar work, and the working conditions are much worse.

For instance one trade that seems to be hot in the area I grew up in is power lineman. They make $50+ per hour as a journeyman. Lots of them take work away jobs out east where they will work all the time and make $200,000 plus per year.

Stuff like that doesn't exist almost anywhere else in the world.

Agreed about elsewhere, but that doesn't change the fact that blue collar can make a ton of coin in Alberta and many parts of North America. Hence, the respect between blue and white collar here in Alberta.

My point wasn't about the fact that overall blue collar is making more than white collar on a regular basis, but the fact that it is a respectable profession here in the Alberta area. I was also pointing out the fact that many white collar point fingers at blue collar and make fun of them probably because they think it's "cool", but are completely unaware that those guys might be making more than them.

Many Asian parents think that their kids will starve if they go into trades. The conversations my dad and I have are to allay their concerns. It's weird explaining to them at times that they make closer to $140K vs $40K a year.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Agreed about elsewhere, but that doesn't change the fact that blue collar can make a ton of coin in Alberta and many parts of North America. Hence, the respect between blue and white collar here in Alberta.

My point wasn't about the fact that overall blue collar is making more than white collar on a regular basis, but the fact that it is a respectable profession here in the Alberta area. I was also pointing out the fact that many white collar point fingers at blue collar and make fun of them probably because they think it's "cool", but are completely unaware that those guys might be making more than them.

Many Asian parents think that their kids will starve if they go into trades. The conversations my dad and I have are to allay their concerns. It's weird explaining to them at times that they make closer to $140K vs $40K a year.

Is that a thing? Do people actually do that?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that a thing? Do people actually do that?

Yes. Until the first time they use a plumber and think about the math.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that a thing? Do people actually do that?

Really?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Weitz

Really?

Yes, really. Maybe it's because I don't hang around with a-holes? I've never had anyone disparage blue collar workers in my circle.

[Calgary14]

How much does the average tradesperson with, say 10 years, experience, make in Calgary?

[blender]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

How much does the average tradesperson with, say 10 years, experience, make in Calgary?

Highly variable depending on the trade and experience level, but the earnings would be solidly in the middle class range. I'd estimate from my own experience and anecdotal evidence between 50k and 80k.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Calgary14

How much does the average tradesperson with, say 10 years, experience, make in Calgary?

Depending on the trade but plumbers/electricians working in calgary, min 80k. Going journeyman rate is about $38 an hour. I think sprinkler fitters are around $40+, lineman/power system electricians/elevator techs are all $55-60.

With OT and one of the latter jobs on there it's more than possible to hit $200k per year

[OMG!WTF!]

There are a lot of expenses involved in working independently. The $60 an hour for most trades isn't net. I would guess it works out to about $40 that some employed trades make.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Yes, really. Maybe it's because I don't hang around with a-holes? I've never had anyone disparage blue collar workers in my circle.

I just find that hard to believe considering it is a very prevalent opinion. Not saying its right or anything but its not new.


Edit: Not your circle but people in general.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I just find that hard to believe considering it is a very prevalent opinion. Not saying its right or anything but its not new.

Edit: Not your circle but people in general.

Are you sure? Can you give us an example of what they would say? Just wondering if your definition of slagging on someone is different than mine.

When I hear people say about white collar workers something like: I couldn't handle working in a cubicle all day. I think to myself, yeah, it does kind of suck, but I don't consider that making fun.

For blue collar workers, say it's -40 outside and somebody says something like: sucks to be them today. I would probably say, yeah, that does kind of suck, but I don't consider that making fun, either.

Is something like that what you mean?

[Shazam]

My old next door neighbour. Dude thought the trades and tradespeople sucked. On the other hand the putz didn't know how to use a level.

[PaperBagger'14]

Without giving too much away, I have been working and overheard a lady tell her kid "you want an education or else you'll end up like these guys" and then pointed at my crew who was doing high voltage electrical work. There is a stigma still but it's a lot less than even 10 years ago.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Without giving too much away, I have been working and overheard a lady tell her kid "you want an education or else you'll end up like these guys" and then pointed at my crew who was doing high voltage electrical work. There is a stigma still but it's a lot less than even 10 years ago.

Thats sort of what I was getting at. The "stigma" of the trades and not going to University and what not. Although not as bad as it used to be there is still people and families who look down at those who go into the trades.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Are you sure? Can you give us an example of what they would say? Just wondering if your definition of slagging on someone is different than mine.

When I hear people say about white collar workers something like: I couldn't handle working in a cubicle all day. I think to myself, yeah, it does kind of suck, but I don't consider that making fun.

For blue collar workers, say it's -40 outside and somebody says something like: sucks to be them today. I would probably say, yeah, that does kind of suck, but I don't consider that making fun, either.

Is something like that what you mean?

It's more of an implicit thing, where the attitude is that if you don't have a degree from a university you're not fully developed, so you'd better get one and anyone who doesn't is lesser.

I do think that attitude is changing though, as many tradesmen these days are fairly sophisticated business people.