[Rumour] Flames still trying to re-sign Russell

[Enoch Root]

I don't want to see prospects given a roster spot. Period.

However, it is a different thing altogether to have one or two spots available on the 23 man roster, and let the kids know that there is an opening if they earn it.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Uh, because the next step might be 30th. We don't put out a roster to tank. We aren't Edmonton.

A tad sensationalist? When you have Mark Giordano, Dougie Hamilton, and TJ Brodie on your blueline eating up about 70+ of the ~85 tough minutes in the game you are not putting out a roster to tank. That's like saying the Penguins put out a roster to tank because they traded away Brandon Sutter.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Deal veterans from a position of surplus, but make sure there is a solid succession plan in place otherwise you're forced to sign yet another marginal NHLer to be your organizational depth.

OK. So when do we start to worry about the Flames' ability to develop NHLers to slot into those depth positions? Next year? Two years? Four?

[IgiTang]

I think this season has shown everything we needed to see from an in ice standpoint.

Brodie and Gio together is going to be a incredible tandem for a few years. Last year was not a fluke and we have a real gem in Brodie.

Gaudreau and Money are legit and can carry this teams offense for some years. Last year was not a fluke.

Hudler is not going to be the leader we have counted on this far, to carry us for years to come.

Bennett is the real deal. And Hamilton will be just fine.

That to me says we need to be sellers of spare parts at the deadline and if that means having 3 or 4 holes in the lineup being filled by guys trying to earn a job, and if we end up 30th, so be it. It's a bit different than up north where they didn't even really try for 5 years..

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This is true.

Shots Blocked 2014-16 (5v5)
------------------------------
Corsi Against 2014-16 (5v5)

Mark Giordano - 10.2%
TJ Brodie - 8.9%
Dennis Wideman - 9.12%
Kris Russell - 14.1%


Basically, Russell is still the best shot blocker on this team despite being a possession black hole.

The two are related though. He wouldn't have to block so many shots if he was better at winning puck battles and maintaining possession when he actually gets it.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

I think this season has shown everything we needed to see from an in ice standpoint.

Brodie and Gio together is going to be a incredible tandem for a few years. Last year was not a fluke and we have a real gem in Brodie.

Gaudreau and Money are legit and can carry this teams offense for some years. Last year was not a fluke.

Hudler is not going to be the leader we have counted on this far, to carry us for years to come.

Bennett is the real deal. And Hamilton will be just fine.

That to me says we need to be sellers of spare parts at the deadline and if that means having 3 or 4 holes in the lineup being filled by guys trying to earn a job, and if we end up 30th, so be it. It's a bit different than up north where they didn't even really try for 5 years..

Disagree with this. For me, the forward core needs to look like this if we want to take the next step:

1) Gaudreau
2) RW sniper capable of 30+ goals consistently
3) Monahan
4) Bennett (may overtake Monahan in time, which would be great)

[Stay Golden]

Treliving should not resign Russell. There will be too much cap dedicated to the D when he has Johnny and Monahan at 6.5-7.5 per long term contracts, a upgrade at scoring Winger and Goalie to worry about for cap. Unless Wideman can be dumped Russell shouldn't be resigned.

[kehatch]

I remember how unhappy some were when the Flames didn't sign Nystrom. But based on the dollar figure he got walking was the smart move.

Fast forward to last off season where the Flames spent way too much cap and term to retain Bouma.

I love Treliving. But my one criticism is he pays to much for depth players. Engelland, Raymond, Bouma, Ramo, etc.

Russell is probably going to get paid too much by someone. He might be worth his current 2.6. But I certainly don't want him at 4 with term. Or even 3 if there is term.

We have 17 million committed long term into our top 3. We have another 12 million for a year in bottom pairing D we can't move.

I would rather bite the bullet and play the above 6 next season with kids getting minutes in between. Spending a bunch on Russell is a bad idea imo.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I remember how unhappy some were when the Flames didn't sign Nystrom. But based on the dollar figure he got walking was the smart move.

Fast forward to last off season where the Flames spent way too much cap and term to retain Bouma.

I love Treliving. But my one criticism is he pays to much for depth players. Engelland, Raymond, Bouma, Ramo, etc.

Russell is probably going to get paid too much by someone. He might be worth his current 2.6. But I certainly don't want him at 4 with term. Or even 3 if there is term.

We have 17 million committed long term into our top 3. We have another 12 million for a year in bottom pairing D we can't move.

I would rather bite the bullet and play the above 6 next season with kids getting minutes in between. Spending a bunch on Russell is a bad idea imo.

Kind of a bad example don't you think? Since letting Nystrom walk cause we didn't want to pay him what, 1.5 million, he's scored 15 goals twice. Pretty good depth guy at that price. Compare that to our 4th liner Jones making 4 million.

Don't understand people complaining about Bouma's salary. That guy would probably be the captain if Gio wasn't here. He's an identity player. He's hard to play against. He's an ideal 3rd liner. Busts his ass, sacrifices his body and has the skill and smarts to pot a few as well. I'd take more Boumas at that price. Replace Jones, Hudler and Colborne with 3 more Boumas and we'd be light years ahead of where we are.

Ramo is our starting goalie so I don't think you can call him a depth player. Nor is he massively overpaid to be a starting goalie. If anything Hiller was the bad signing. Engelland has been solid and really his price tag wouldn't be an issue if Wideman wasn't overpaid and we didn't have Smid who could fill the same role as Deryk. I think the Engelland signing is perfectly fine.

As for Raymond that is by far, by far, Treliving's worst signing. Terrible term and money for a useless no good player. I'm sure he regrets it.

As for your point about not overpaying Russell, I completely agree. We can't pay him top 4 money but he can command it. So if he wants to stay he'll have to take less. We'll see if they can meet, I'm skeptical. But at that right price I'd totally take him back and then we'd have to move one of Wideman, Smid and Engelland.

[Dajazz]

Russell is a great shot blocker because he needs to be. He's Mini-Butler, can't get at hold of the puck, can't keep it, can't retrieve and gets hemmed in his own zone. To make up for this he takes pucks in his face, gut and chins. Good little warrior, not a bad first pass either, but man he can't win a puck battle against a snow man in summer. He's a 5-6 on a decent team, that's not a bad hockey player, but he should not be close to 20 minutes a game, yet he plays 25....

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Russell is a great shot blocker because he needs to be. He's Mini-Butler, can't get at hold of the puck, can't keep it, can't retrieve and gets hemmed in his own zone. To make up for this he takes pucks in his face, gut and chins. Good little warrior, not a bad first pass either, but man he can't win a puck battle against a snow man in summer. He's a 5-6 on a decent team, that's not a bad hockey player, but he should not be close to 20 minutes a game, yet he plays 25....

I'd also add that most of Russell's shot blocks are just him being in the way. There is a way to block shots that can lead to gaining possession if you're actually skating the direction the puck is going to deflect off you. When you're just standing there and the puck hits you - you rarely are changing possession.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Don't understand people complaining about Bouma's salary. That guy would probably be the captain if Gio wasn't here. He's an identity player. He's hard to play against. He's an ideal 3rd liner. Busts his ass, sacrifices his body and has the skill and smarts to pot a few as well. I'd take more Boumas at that price. Replace Jones, Hudler and Colborne with 3 more Boumas and we'd be light years ahead of where we are.

Ramo is our starting goalie so I don't think you can call him a depth player. Nor is he massively overpaid to be a starting goalie. If anything Hiller was the bad signing. Engelland has been solid and really his price tag wouldn't be an issue if Wideman wasn't overpaid and we didn't have Smid who could fill the same role as Deryk. I think the Engelland signing is perfectly fine.

As for Raymond that is by far, by far, Treliving's worst signing. Terrible term and money for a useless no good player. I'm sure he regrets it.

So far in Bouma's contract - he's had more stints on LTIR than points. I agree with his style of play being good for the team, but its also replaceable. You've got Hathaway or perhaps Austin Carroll in a year who can play a similar role while making less than $1M/year.

If you're going to maximize your spending on the cap - you should only pay for irreplaceable pieces - like scorers, big possession guys, top centers and top defense.

The Flames currently have a ton of overpaid replaceable players - Jones, Raymond, Smid, Engelland, Ramo, Hiller. You need to limit your cap mistakes - its working out fine now because the best forwards are still on their ELCs. But once you start having to pay them - you can't have 1/3 of your cap tied in bad contracts.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Kind of a bad example don't you think? Since letting Nystrom walk cause we didn't want to pay him what, 1.5 million, he's scored 15 goals twice. Pretty good depth guy at that price. Compare that to our 4th liner Jones making 4 million.

Don't understand people complaining about Bouma's salary. That guy would probably be the captain if Gio wasn't here. He's an identity player. He's hard to play against. He's an ideal 3rd liner. Busts his ass, sacrifices his body and has the skill and smarts to pot a few as well. I'd take more Boumas at that price. Replace Jones, Hudler and Colborne with 3 more Boumas and we'd be light years ahead of where we are.

Ramo is our starting goalie so I don't think you can call him a depth player. Nor is he massively overpaid to be a starting goalie. If anything Hiller was the bad signing. Engelland has been solid and really his price tag wouldn't be an issue if Wideman wasn't overpaid and we didn't have Smid who could fill the same role as Deryk. I think the Engelland signing is perfectly fine.

As for Raymond that is by far, by far, Treliving's worst signing. Terrible term and money for a useless no good player. I'm sure he regrets it.

As for your point about not overpaying Russell, I completely agree. We can't pay him top 4 money but he can command it. So if he wants to stay he'll have to take less. We'll see if they can meet, I'm skeptical. But at that right price I'd totally take him back and then we'd have to move one of Wideman, Smid and Engelland.

1.4 million was a lot more relative to the cap when he signed the contract. Sure he put up 15 goals twice in 6 years. But he has been a liability on the ice, has had very small point totals, and hasn't been a great producer outside of those two seasons.

I think he is a good example because he is an example of a bottom line / pairing player getting paid to be more then that.

With Raymond, Bollig, Smid, Engelland, Wideman, etc signed through next season we don't have the luxury of signing another depth guy to a contract that pays to much.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by kehatch

1.4 million was a lot more relative to the cap when he signed the contract. Sure he put up 15 goals twice in 6 years. But he has been a liability on the ice, has had very small point totals, and hasn't been a great producer outside of those two seasons.

I think he is a good example because he is an example of a bottom line / pairing player getting paid to be more then that.

With Raymond, Bollig, Smid, Engelland, Wideman, etc signed through next season we don't have the luxury of signing another depth guy to a contract that pays to much.

Stajan, Backlund, Bouma ...

[Benched]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't want to see prospects given a roster spot. Period.

Personally I'd rather they DO give the rosters spots to the kids down the stretch when we're out of it. I'd rather do the 'what do we have here' tests when it doesn't matter, than testing all pre-season, and then coming out of the gates flat like this year.

Doesn't mean they'll stick, but I'd rather spend the last 20games of the year testing and seeing the young kids as research for the following year.

[Flash Walken]

Nystrom is also an example for how these journeyman are always available to patrol your bottom 6 and that they are too inconsistent year to year to warrant term or dollars.

[kehatch]

Another way to put it. On a 23-man roster with a 70-million dollar cap you get to pay each of your players 3-million. That is it. That means if you pay a player 4 million you need to pay someone else 2-million. If you pay someone 5-million then someone else gets 1-million. If you pay a player 7-million then you need to limit two other players to a million. That is the simple math.

Russell's spot represents an opportunity to generate cap space with an ELC or budget contract. It is also why many of us had an issue with the Bouma contract.

Yet another way to put it. If you assume that Gaudreau, Monahan, Hudler, Bennett, Backlund, Frolik, Hamilton, Brodie, Giordano, and Ramo are your top 9 forwards, top 3 D, and starting goalie then the break down of the Flames cap is:

• Top half: 33-million
• Bottom half: 36-million

Unless you think Russell is ahead of Giordano, Brodie, or Hamilton then he is definitely in the bottom half. Meanwhile new contracts are coming to Giordano, Monahan, and Gaudreau on the top half.

[Demetric]

that pp goal by russel should increase his value ... eh .... eh

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Nystrom is also an example for how these journeyman are always available to patrol your bottom 6 and that they are too inconsistent year to year to warrant term or dollars.

Good point.

Right at the end of free agency - New Jersey signed Schlemko for $625k and Stempniak for $850k. Guys like Glencross couldn't get a deal. Those guys are out there.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

So far in Bouma's contract - he's had more stints on LTIR than points. I agree with his style of play being good for the team, but its also replaceable. You've got Hathaway or perhaps Austin Carroll in a year who can play a similar role while making less than $1M/year.

If you're going to maximize your spending on the cap - you should only pay for irreplaceable pieces - like scorers, big possession guys, top centers and top defense.

The Flames currently have a ton of overpaid replaceable players - Jones, Raymond, Smid, Engelland, Ramo, Hiller. You need to limit your cap mistakes - its working out fine now because the best forwards are still on their ELCs. But once you start having to pay them - you can't have 1/3 of your cap tied in bad contracts.

Guys like Bouma are way less replaceable than fans think. For some reason a lot of fans think great 3rd liners grow on trees or are just waiting in the minors at all times. This is not true. We've seen some great 3rd liners here in Calgary (Stephane Yelle comes to mind) and some forgettable ones. Bouma is a key, core guy IMO. You underrate his contributions if you think Carroll or Hathaway could replace him right now. Hathaway could replace Jooris or Jones on the 4th line. Bouma and Backlund are going to be 2/3 of a sick, sick shut down line when Hartley eventually moves Bennett back to centre.

A truly great 3rd liner who understands their role and plays it to a tee is hard to find. The Bouma contract is not a problem at all and he is definitely a core guy in my mind. Core guys don't have to be just the 1st and 2nd liners and top 4 d-men. You can have a depth player who is a core guy too and Bouma is that guy.

Don't understand at all the fans who are whining about Bouma's contract. His contract doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as "bad contract" IMO. Head scratcher for me.

Yes we have too many depth guys making too much money. Jones, Stajan, Smid, Engelland, Wideman, Raymond make too much money for their role right now. And I'd take Bouma over all those guys in importance to the team. Again Bouma's contract isn't the problem. It's having Bouma WHILE having Jones, Stajan, Smid, Engelland, Wideman, and Raymond on your bottom two lines and bottom defense pair.

So enough whining about Bouma's contract when clearly paying guys like Jones, Raymond and Stajan as much as they make to play depth roles is the real problem. Bouma is more important to the team than any of those guys. Again it's okay to have a core 3rd liner making some money. And Bouma is young and is that core depth guy. The rest can go.

Bouma is a warrior. Heart and soul. Self sacrifice. He hustles and PUNISHES the opposition. He makes us harder to play against. He's a great model for all our future role players to learn from and follow. Key guy IMO. Bouma is the type of guy we'd want MORE of in the playoffs not less.

Do we want to be a physical, punishing, strong, hard to shut down team that is hard to play against? Then we want more players like Bouma not less. He's a key guy on our depth lines, the most key one along with Backlund perhaps.

Gaudreau-Bennett-Ferland
????-Monahan-Frolik
Bouma-Backlund-????
????-????-????

That's our longterm forward outlook at the moment IMO. Guys like Hathaway and Carroll may be 4th line options soon, a guy like Arnold might be another.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Disagree with this. For me, the forward core needs to look like this if we want to take the next step:

1) Gaudreau
2) RW sniper capable of 30+ goals consistently
3) Monahan
4) Bennett (may overtake Monahan in time, which would be great)

I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with.. You're simply re-wording what I said. You disagree with how I said it?

We all know that the forward core starts and ends with JG, Money, Bennett and to a lesser but important piece, Michael Frolik. By the end of the year, you could possibly add Ferland to that group. He's not necessarily top 6 but he's easily a middle 6 guy who can play on any line. This making Bouma a little expendable.

All of this is aside from the point. We don't need to be re-signing a bunch of underachievers. We need to move the underachievers and make some holes to evaluate anyone who adds to this roster and meshes with the core.

We may have some more gems in the AHL but they need to cycle in to show what they can do.

Look at Ferland. Had OK numbers in the AHL but it took him getting a shot on the Flames for him to really come out of his shell and show he's much more dynamic than we all thought.

This opportunity needs to be given to 5-6 guys in the AHL.