View Poll Results: What do you think of the trade after a week of getting your head around it?
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Love it, think Lucic is an upgrade
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109 |
16.80% |
Like it, clears some cap space even if Lucic is no better
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197 |
30.35% |
Indifferent, both teams getting a failed project
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187 |
28.81% |
Dislike it, Neal needed another year to bounce back
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107 |
16.49% |
Hate it, Neal will be better in Edmonton
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49 |
7.55% |
07-24-2019, 01:07 PM
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#2441
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Pent-up
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
He was easily the worst player on the ice a lot of nights.
So much so that the Oilers wanted him off the team.
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I’d agree with most overpaid. But he was not the worst player on the team. We can’t sit here and applaud Hathaway when Lucic did the same thing. We can laugh at the contract, but he does what he does. Neal no longer does what he’s suppose to.
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07-24-2019, 01:08 PM
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#2442
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: F*** me. We're so f***ing good, you check the f***ing standings? Lets f***ing go! F***ing practice!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
He was easily the worst player on the ice a lot of nights.
So much so that the Oilers wanted him off the team.
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A lot of nights? Well James Neal was the Flames worst player every night.
He was so bad that we traded him for Milan Lucic. So there's that.
__________________
Backlund for Selke 2017 2018
Oilers suck.
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07-24-2019, 01:10 PM
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#2443
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Regina
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The more I sit on this trade the more I like it. He brings some actual toughness, both him and Neal were bad last year. Lucic is cheaper and a year younger, and I think can play better in the lower 6 than Neal did. Also Neal is as slow as Lucic. Plus the potential 3rd rounder. equal years left on their deals. Worth a shot. I just wish we had Kept Smith for 2 mil instead of signing Talbot for 2,75
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07-24-2019, 01:17 PM
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#2444
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Scoring Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GranteedEV
I'm highly skeptical of this argument. In the regular season our team was tied for tops in the NHL with the sharks for even strength high danger goals with 128. While that can't qualify the dirtyness of the goal, it typically does signal a willingness to crash the net.
I think if we lacked in any area it was goals scored from outside by forwards. Guys like MacKinnon and Rantanen were scoring OT winners from 25+ feet out on Smith in the playoffs with absolute snipes and we had no one who could do the same at the other end as all our goal scoring forwards are muffin shooters who depend on dirty goals.
I reject the idea that we didn't score dirty goals. Mangiapane, Monahan, Tkachuk, Bennett, Hathaway, Backlund, Frolik, Ryan, Lindholm... all these guys were crashing the net hard all year. About the only forward who was scoring primarily from outside / on pretty plays seemed to be Czarnik. And that worked because he brought an element that was sorely missed. Even Monahan, our best shooter, rarely steps out of his typical scoring areas, although they're further out than most of the team.
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Agree with all of this. Enjoy your takes.
So after the near khadri trade its obviouse that the team is looking at center most likely however i think the addition of a pure sniper rw wing would be just as good on the short term. It would force backs into a more offensive minded thinking. I like frolik but the team would be a real threat if the second line was also driving offense more consistently. A sniper would improve the second powerplay and as you pointed out seems to be the element missing from the offense of the team.
Thought we got it with Neal but alas it was not so.
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07-24-2019, 01:28 PM
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#2445
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First Line Centre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlh2640
The more I sit on this trade the more I like it. He brings some actual toughness, both him and Neal were bad last year. Lucic is cheaper and a year younger, and I think can play better in the lower 6 than Neal did. Also Neal is as slow as Lucic. Plus the potential 3rd rounder. equal years left on their deals. Worth a shot. I just wish we had Kept Smith for 2 mil instead of signing Talbot for 2,75
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Outside of the end of the season for Smith, both he and Neal were by far the most frustrating players on the team.
I'm glad both are gone, even if both have a good season in Edmonton.
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07-24-2019, 01:50 PM
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#2446
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz
He was easily the worst player on the ice a lot of nights.
So much so that the Oilers wanted him off the team.
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I'm sure Lucic was perceived as the worst player on the ice on some nights, and some nights may even have been.
But the numbers don't suggest that he was the Oilers' worst player.
With 400 minutes 5v5 as the cutoff:
Lucic was 13th of 16 on the Oilers in goals per 60 (0.26) and 5th of 16 on the Oilers in primary assists per 60 (0.58). His primary points/60 of 0.84 ranks 11th of 16, ahead of Jesse Puljujarvi, Ryan Spooner, Kyle Brodziak, Tobias Rieder, and Colby Cave. And while he was 13th in goals rate, his expected goals was a smidge higher at 0.53 xGF/60 (11th) so it's still very possible he was still somewhat the victim of bad luck (or a lack of confidence), as easy as it is to reject that notion.
Neal was 13th of 13th on the Flames in goals per 60 (0.31) and 12th of 13 in primary assist per 60 (0.39). His primary points/60 of 0.7 ranks 13th of 13 and in fact trails Lucic. As for his expected goals, those were a bit higher at 0.62 xGF/60 (9th of 13) so not unlike Lucic, it's possible last year's goal scoring was the result of some bad luck as well, but not indicative of a top-tier goal scorer either.
Hathaway was 5th of 13th on the Flames in goals per 60 (0.84) yet 13th of 13 in primary assist per 60 (0.19, yikes). His primary points/60 of 1.02 ranks 12th of 13 on the Flames. His expected goals rate of 0.65 was 8th of 13 so he was the beneficiary of some very fortunate luck.
Then you look at the on-ice shot metrics:
Hathaway was 12th of 13 on the Flames in score-adjusted xGF% at 50.19%
Neal was 13th of 13 on the Flames in score-adjusted xGF% at 47.04%
Lucic was 4th of 16 on the Oilers in score-adjusted xGF% at 49.08%
Or even basic goals-scored ratios:
Hathaway was 4th of 13 on the Flames in score-adjusted GF% at 60.53% (totally sustainable )
Neal was 12th of 13 on the Flames in score-adjusted GF% at 44.56%
Lucic was 8th of 16 on the OIlers in score-adjusted GF% at 44.93%
However you wanna shake it, Lucic on a much worse team, was apparently more effective than Neal was on a much better team. He was higher up his team's shot metric charts and goal ratio charts, and he was even less far down his primary point charts.
I expect Lucic to at least match Hathaway in most of those areas besides GF% (which was hilariously inflated by the 4th line's unstoppable streak to close the season) and if his numbers relative to his team are any indication, it's likely he will outperform Hathaway rather than just match him. And Hathaway was clearly better than Neal last year.
My only question is how disciplined Lucic can be but that's something that's probably followed him his whole career, even in Boston, so I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
__________________
"May those who accept their fate find happiness. May those who defy it find glory."
Last edited by GranteedEV; 07-24-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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07-24-2019, 01:53 PM
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#2447
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood
A lot of nights? Well James Neal was the Flames worst player every night.
He was so bad that we traded him for Milan Lucic. So there's that.
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Neal was so bad they sat him healthy in the most important game of the season.
The deal is garbage in garbage out for both teams. Both fan bases are looking for potential positives.
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07-24-2019, 02:11 PM
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#2448
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Resident Videologist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Calgary
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Yep I don't think Flames fans are expecting Lucic to produce offensively.
5-10 goals but 200+ hits on a 3rd line would be great and a much more positive contribution than Neal was able to have.
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07-24-2019, 02:33 PM
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#2450
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rando
Neal was so bad they sat him healthy in the most important game of the season.
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This is something that I dont think can be repeated enough:
in the biggest game of this flames year (dare I say, the most important game in the last 4 seasons) the coach decided that the team would be better off playing a 19 year old rookie who had never played in the playoffs rather than Neal, who was ostensibly brought in to provide leadership in the playoffs.
Neal was dragging this team down.
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07-24-2019, 02:37 PM
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#2451
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Franchise Player
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Neal cost the team game 4 and was scratched in game 5
__________________
GFG
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07-24-2019, 02:40 PM
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#2452
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toonage
^ Nope. It is what it is.
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Why wouldn't he waive for the expansion draft? All it does is help his own team. Listening to Brad it's already been discussed
__________________
GFG
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07-24-2019, 02:44 PM
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#2453
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Taking a while to get to 5000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c
Why wouldn't he waive for the expansion draft? All it does is help his own team. Listening to Brad it's already been discussed
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Yep, he very well might do that. But the question was about the trade and nothing was amended following the deal.
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07-24-2019, 02:57 PM
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#2454
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c
Why wouldn't he waive for the expansion draft? All it does is help his own team. Listening to Brad it's already been discussed
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To me the NMC is the only sour point in the deal. As Strange_Brew alluded to early hopefully Treliving actually has an agreement in place, in written for the expansion draft and not just a wish and a prayer like Feaster.
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07-24-2019, 02:57 PM
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#2455
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monahammer
This is something that I dont think can be repeated enough:
in the biggest game of this flames year (dare I say, the most important game in the last 4 seasons) the coach decided that the team would be better off playing a 19 year old rookie who had never played in the playoffs rather than Neal, who was ostensibly brought in to provide leadership in the playoffs.
Neal was dragging this team down.
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So why did Peters wait until the very last chance to healthy scratch Neal?
Or was there more that mid season injury?
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07-24-2019, 03:03 PM
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#2456
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Lifetime Suspension
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Brew
So why did Peters wait until the very last chance to healthy scratch Neal?
Or was there more that mid season injury?
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Patience finally ran out? Going for a leisurely skate on the winning goal in game four was the straw that broke the camels back?
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07-24-2019, 03:32 PM
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#2457
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Owner
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futzee
Is there some chance that Lucic waived his NTC as part of this trade and that just hasn't been discussed yet? The only way I can fathom this deal is if we don't have to protect him in the expansion draft.
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Treliving asked about the NMC by Pinder directly, and he said "we are very comfortable ..." about six times in a paragraph long answer.
I'd read between the lines that Lucic isn't allowed to waive this early but he's agreed when that time comes it's not a problem.
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07-24-2019, 03:35 PM
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#2458
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Pent-up
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Plutanamo Bay.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
Treliving asked about the NMC by Pinder directly, and he said "we are very comfortable ..." about six times in a paragraph long answer.
I'd read between the lines that Lucic isn't allowed to waive this early but he's agreed when that time comes it's not a problem.
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I thought someone shared a tweet showing the date when a player can waive the expansion draft... I can’t recall though. But I was under the impression the clause cannot be waived until fairly close to the expansion draft
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07-24-2019, 03:36 PM
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#2459
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bingo
Treliving asked about the NMC by Pinder directly, and he said "we are very comfortable ..." about six times in a paragraph long answer.
I'd read between the lines that Lucic isn't allowed to waive this early but he's agreed when that time comes it's not a problem.
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I doubt there is anything preventing Lucic from legally waiving it now.
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07-24-2019, 03:37 PM
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#2460
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers
I thought someone shared a tweet showing the date when a player can waive the expansion draft... I can’t recall though. But I was under the impression the clause cannot be waived until fairly close to the expansion draft
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He can't actually waive it until the expansion draft, there is nothing to waive yet. But I'm sure he could legally agree now to waive it when the time comes.
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