China needs to chill out. Big time.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Seriously, that's an idiotic response. Did you even read my post? The guy was able to experience a significant improvement in his quality of life because of the situation. A lot of people in the countryside around his area apparently consider it a pretty lucky thing to find the government needs your land, just because it's an opportunity to move up in life.

Besides, do you think those laws don't exist in Western countries? It's not just Chinese land that can get seized for civil projects you know.

So did he have a choice? Do any of them have a choice? What happens when they say 'no' to the government?

Endless torture and life-time in prison?

Last time I checked, the Canadian government is not going to force me off my land. I don't care how much they pay. Its my choice whether I stay here or not.

You're just trying to brush it over as 'good'.....because the guy got a pretty good sum of money. Facts still are that he got 'forced' off the land. What happens when the government doesn't want to pay 'good' anymore? Because apparently that is what China had been doing the past half century. Nice to see things change.

Now they don't just 'kick' them off....but actually give me lots of money. Must be nice.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're just trying to brush it over as 'good'.....because the guy got a pretty good sum of money. Facts still are that he got 'forced' off the land. What happens when the government doesn't want to pay 'good' anymore? Because apparently that is what China had been doing the past half century. Nice to see things change.

Now they don't just 'kick' them off....but actually give me lots of money. Must be nice.

I'm not 'brushing it over'. If anyone is doing that it's you, by refusing to acknowledge the complexities of life in another country where conditions and individual values, needs and perspectives are different. I'm trying to enrich the discussion by providing some information that gives insight into the complexity of the situation. You're simply reducing it to a 'bad government' vs. 'victim citizen' portrayal. That is idiotic.

And you really should read up on land owner rights vs. the government in North America. Land owner rights are not so absolute.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I'm not 'brushing it over'. If anyone is doing that it's you, by refusing to acknowledge the complexities of life in another country where conditions and individual values, needs and perspectives are different. I'm trying to enrich the discussion by providing some information that gives insight into the complexity of the situation. You're simply reducing it to a 'bad government' vs. 'victim citizen' portrayal. That is idiotic.

And you really should read up on land owner rights vs. the government in North America. Land owner rights are not so absolute.

Don't deflect this onto what happens here in 'Canada.'

We're not talking about 'Canada.'

I know you live there, which is great....but I have a problem, and so should any normal human being....with the government taking your land when they feel like it.

Something IS wrong with that. I don't care how much money they pay you.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

Don't deflect this onto what happens here in 'Canada.'

We're not talking about 'Canada.'

I know you live there, which is great....but I have a problem, and so should any normal human being....with the government taking your land when they feel like it.

Something IS wrong with that. I don't care how much money they pay you.

There's really no need to be a condescending prick about things. I do live here, and I'm trying to contribute to a discussion by adding some of what I've learned while here. Quite frankly, I think you're being terribly small minded about this.

Maybe it's the fact that you're from a small town (I think you posted this previously) in a country with a ridiculous amount of land per capita, but your position on absolute land rights of the individual is simply not practical, especially in a developing country with 1.3 billion people. Perhaps you should accept that people need to live together, and that sometimes civil projects outweigh individual rights, you're living in a dream world.

I don't agree with everything China has done in relocating people, but it's a much more complicated situation than you acknowledge.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

There's really no need to be a condescending prick about things. I do live here, and I'm trying to contribute to a discussion by adding some of what I've learned while here. Quite frankly, I think you're being terribly small minded about this.

Maybe it's the fact that you're from a small town (I think you posted this previously) in a country with a ridiculous amount of land per capita, but your position on absolute land rights of the individual is simply not practical, especially in a developing country with 1.3 billion people. Perhaps you should accept that people need to live together, and that sometimes civil projects outweigh individual rights, you're living in a dream world.

I don't agree with everything China has done in relocating people, but it's a much more complicated situation than you acknowledge.

I wasn't being a prick at all. But if you want to take it that way, go ahead.

You seem to agree that its alright for the Chinese government to simply throw people off their land, or out of their houses.....just as long as they pay them money.

But its not right....and you know it.

I'll say it again....if I 'own' my land....the government cannot force me off of it. Nor can they force me to sell. Sure, if they offer me a few million for land that is only worth a couple hundred thousand, I might sell. But then again, its still my choice. And thats the way it should be.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

There's really no need to be a condescending prick about things. I do live here, and I'm trying to contribute to a discussion by adding some of what I've learned while here. Quite frankly, I think you're being terribly small minded about this.

Maybe it's the fact that you're from a small town (I think you posted this previously) in a country with a ridiculous amount of land per capita, but your position on absolute land rights of the individual is simply not practical, especially in a developing country with 1.3 billion people. Perhaps you should accept that people need to live together, and that sometimes civil projects outweigh individual rights, you're living in a dream world.

I don't agree with everything China has done in relocating people, but it's a much more complicated situation than you acknowledge.

Like building massively inefficient industrial projects and flooding fertile farmland? The Chinese State is on a roller coaster ride towards environmental collapse and one reason for it, is its lack of respect for property rights.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

I wasn't being a prick at all. But if you want to take it that way, go ahead.

You seem to agree that its alright for the Chinese government to simply throw people off their land, or out of their houses.....just as long as they pay them money.

But its not right....and you know it.

I'll say it again....if I 'own' my land....the government cannot force me off of it. Nor can they force me to sell. Sure, if they offer me a few million for land that is only worth a couple hundred thousand, I might sell. But then again, its still my choice. And thats the way it should be.

Actually I don't know it, and I will take it as you being a condescending prick again. I disagree with you. Your ownership is nothing more than a matter of law, and if the law states your property can be taken with reasonable compensation in a situation where your property is needed to benefit the masses, then so be it. If it was taken without compensation then I would say there was a moral problem, but that's not what we're talking about. Frankly, I think it would be a big problem not to have such a law. Especially in a developing country with a population the size of China's.

Also, the relationship between you and your property is immaterial by your own standards. Unless of course your property is in China...

Originally Posted by peter12

Like building massively inefficient industrial projects and flooding fertile farmland? The Chinese State is on a roller coaster ride towards environmental collapse and one reason for it, is its lack of respect for property rights.

I'm not in support of inefficient industrial projects like the 3 gorges, but that's hardly the sum total of the civil projects in China. Besides it's not a lack of respect for property rights that's got China heading for environmental problems, it's China's problems in balancing a massive population, primarily living in poverty, with the goal of industrialization and modernization.

[CubicleGeek]

Originally Posted by Azure

You seem to agree that its alright for the Chinese government to simply throw people off their land, or out of their houses.....just as long as they pay them money.

Um? Calgary, 16th ave expansion? Zoning lease expires, zones half a block on the southern side as city land. People must leave. City pays market value for properties. Don't see much difference here.

Anyways, they are compensated fairly for it in China too. My uncle was a "victim" of a land reclamation project in Guangzhou and the amount he got for it allowed him to upgrade to a better suite at a slight premium. Though there are alot of things I don't agree about the Chinese government, it isn't quite as barbaric as some would make it seem.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I don't agree with everything China has done in relocating people, but it's a much more complicated situation than you acknowledge.

I think that was the point that Azure missed when I bring up England and the USA as examples of other (former) world powers and their international affairs to gain some perspective. You said it perfectly, its such a complicated issue that I don't think its a right or wrong answer, but many factors that go into what happens here - I respect the arguments of human rights (and agree that what is going on there is not right) but its such a complicated issue that I too many arm-chair critics (not you Az) have gone overboard to bash China as a whole, from their society, people and customs. As an outside observer, you should realize that when you enter another society, different customs doesn't mean that they are an animal zoo, and I think too many here have trouble accepting that.

Originally Posted by peter12

Like building massively inefficient industrial projects and flooding fertile farmland? The Chinese State is on a roller coaster ride towards environmental collapse and one reason for it, is its lack of respect for property rights.

And its improving. I keep bringing this up, developing countries typically have less concerns over environmental issues, but as they become more established and self-sustaining, environmental concerns start to get addressed and China has gone along ways to doing that in the past year. Moreover, many environmental projects and research are underway to "clean up" China's pollution.

Just see the proposal for Dongtan

Originally Posted by CubicleGeek

Anyways, they are compensated fairly for it in China too. My uncle was a "victim" of a land reclamation project in Guangzhou and the amount he got for it allowed him to upgrade to a better suite at a slight premium. Though there are alot of things I don't agree about the Chinese government, it isn't quite as barbaric as some would make it seem.

Thanks for sharing that with us, good to see some perspective.


Also, for the basis of this thread (i.e. media propagation machine) funny to see the CNN and the USA media is no angel either.
http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/en/thread-50-1-1.html
I think that article is overboard in their accusations, but funny to see none the less. This whole Tibet issue sounds alot like how the USA treated Cuba and many middle east countries.

[Azure]

I'm not 'trying' to bash China....in fact I haven't even said much about the whole Tibet thing, even if I think it is wrong.

But I have a problem with the government having the right to do anything with your land/home/job/life.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not 'trying' to bash China....in fact I haven't even said much about the whole Tibet thing, even if I think it is wrong.

But I have a problem with the government having the right to do anything with your land/home/job/life.

But it's their government. It's the one they fought a war over and cherish. They chastized and mocked democracy for decades by boasting that their government was the best in the world. They are very proud of this government. They are proud of losing their homes for the Olympic movement.

To them it is our government's lack of power that makes us out of control and no longer have any values.

[CubicleGeek]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not 'trying' to bash China....in fact I haven't even said much about the whole Tibet thing, even if I think it is wrong.

But I have a problem with the government having the right to do anything with your land/home/job/life.

I hear, ya. I'm not trying to defend China either, because from my personal experiences within the country and having close family and friends living there, I definitely have problems with how some things are done. In fact, it would be a pretty long list.

Just want to point out things that I have observed contrary to what people have posted here to stem some of the confusion.

My take on the entire 3 gorges project. My understanding is that they were also compensated fairly for for the land. The biggest problem is that since that land isn't worth alot, the people displaced have a very hard time finding a place to land. A good analogy is if the Canadian government displaced you out of a small town in Alberta (say Didsbury) and say your only option is to relocate to Calgary. You'd be in quite the pickle, since the differences in living standards are an order of magnitude. It's an even a larger discrepancy in the Chinese case than in my analogy.

This is compounded by the fact that Chinese farmers don't make alot of disposable income. It's impossible to relocate to a decent city, where all the jobs are, given the market value given to them for the land and how much they have managed to save. Add in the general lack of social aid provided by the Chinese government, the situation gets even uglier.

My uncle was fortunate in the sense that he had already owned property in a relatively high valued area of China and he basically did a lateral move within the same city.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But it's their government. It's the one they fought a war over and cherish. They chastized and mocked democracy for decades by boasting that their government was the best in the world. They are very proud of this government. They are proud of losing their homes for the Olympic movement.

To them it is our government's lack of power that makes us out of control and no longer have any values.

I have a slight feeling that not everyone in China 'mocks' democracy.

People are born with a sense of freedom....and eventually China will become democratic too.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

China is a target of convenience for western media outlets looking for easy stories and western politicians looking for easy PR. Why aren't people as eager to attack Putin and the Russian Federation for how they have oppressively and militarily reigned in Chechnya? How they have oppressed and killed Chechens and their native ethnic groups, religious freedoms, desires for independance? Is that not a similar analogue to the China-Tibet issue?

Well, if the subject of Chechnya comes up, you certainly won't hear me defending the Russian government. Nor do I have much use for Putin, who is a smoother thug than the norm, but still a thug.

However, this isn't more than tangentially relevant to the issue of China and Tibet - do I have to make a comprehensive list of all the injustices in the world which I oppose before I'm allowed to criticize? Seriously, we get it already: other nations are not squeaky-clean paragons of righteous conduct, either. However, with the Chinese gov't, not only their ACTIONS are repugnant, but their entire REGIME is evil - they have moved from hardcore totalitarianism since Mao died, but it is still a one-party state which is inefficient and highly corrupt, and which still routinely imprisons, tortures and "re-educates" political dissidents.

Democracies can adopt questionable policies and wage unjust wars, but because the politicians are accountable to the people, in the long run such excesses are corrected. Here, not only have the communists dispossessed the Tibetans and tried to destroy their culture, they not only do not admit culpability, they try to twist the facts so that first of all, their actions are justified, and secondly, the Tibetans are the instigators of the problems! How anyone can believe this is beyond me, it is nothing more than doublespeak and propaganda crafted for their own people, who have been conditioned to accept the most preposterous claims as true as long as they receive government sanction.

One last thing - look at the GDP of Taiwan, and then look at China's. Then tell me again how the regime in China is "helping" the common people to prosperity. The worst thing that ever happened to China was the Communists winning the civil war, the Kuomintang may have been corrupt and inept, but compared to Mao and his successors, they were and are geniuses.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

People are born with a sense of freedom....and eventually China will become democratic too.

That's a pretty hopeful statement. I'm not so sure China will become democratic in the long run. Democracy has been an aberration in human history so far, and the rise of a capitalist dictatorship as the major world power could well happen. The constitutional style freedoms of the West are pretty special and unusual in human history.

[TangerZ]

Originally Posted by jammies

However, this isn't more than tangentially relevant to the issue of China and Tibet - do I have to make a comprehensive list of all the injustices in the world which I oppose before I'm allowed to criticize? Seriously, we get it already: other nations are not squeaky-clean paragons of righteous conduct, either. However, with the Chinese gov't, not only their ACTIONS are repugnant, but their entire REGIME is evil - they have moved from hardcore totalitarianism since Mao died, but it is still a one-party state which is inefficient and highly corrupt, and which still routinely imprisons, tortures and "re-educates" political dissidents.

Democracies can adopt questionable policies and wage unjust wars, but because the politicians are accountable to the people, in the long run such excesses are corrected. Here, not only have the communists dispossessed the Tibetans and tried to destroy their culture, they not only do not admit culpability, they try to twist the facts so that first of all, their actions are justified, and secondly, the Tibetans are the instigators of the problems! How anyone can believe this is beyond me, it is nothing more than doublespeak and propaganda crafted for their own people, who have been conditioned to accept the most preposterous claims as true as long as they receive government sanction.

Jammies, I am a Tibetan, and that right there is the essence of what I, and many other Tibetans have felt in the past few weeks. Thanks for your informed response.

[TangerZ]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Perhaps he's pointing out the hypocracy of it when western countries (especially the U.S.) have similar oppression or imprisonment of people that is ambiguously illegal or unethical.

I'm not going to get into this debate but only say that both sides (China AND Tibet) and certain portions of both camps have their fare shares of "evil". China is an oppressive regime in many situations but they do not deserve the full blame that the Western media is giving them. Many Tibetan protesters engage in violence and guerilla tactics against China. The Dalai Lama himself is not exactly a "man of peace" if you look back into the history. He was part of the ruling class of feudal lords who subjugated and even enslaved the lower class Tibetans in their own form of an oppressive regime. Yes, the Dalai Lama is a religious figure but if you can see past that and into the violent, feudal history of Tibet (pre-China) you'll see that he's not exactly Ghandi - something which the western media and politicians seem to be overeager into thinking.

China is a target of convenience for western media outlets looking for easy stories and western politicians looking for easy PR. Why aren't people as eager to attack Putin and the Russian Federation for how they have oppressively and militarily reigned in Chechnya? How they have oppressed and killed Chechens and their native ethnic groups, religious freedoms, desires for independance? Is that not a similar analogue to the China-Tibet issue?

Hack and Lube: It is very important for everyone to hear all perspectives of the story in order to understand the complicated Tibetan issue. However, your point about the Dalai Lama not being a man of peace is ill-conceived. The Dalai Lama has dedicated his whole life to peace. In fact, without him, I am certain that the Tibetan cause would be a violent struggle for freedom, and in fact the Tibetans would have never given up the armed resistance when China invaded. When China's government talks about Tibet's feudal theocratic past, they are talking about previous Dalai Lamas from the 19 and turn of the 20th centuries. They try not to go into details, because their stick man argument wouldn't stand up. This Dalai Lama, became the temporal leader of Tibet as a teenager, only after the Chinese had made their intent to invade Tibet. His enthronement was rushed, against his own will, as Tibet was thrust into chaos and the regent of Tibet (who was in charge during the Dalai Lama's Buddhist study period as a child) in fact told him he would resign and that Tibet needs him, too which the Dalai Lama laughs in amusement today since the regent had previously fought for power. The Dalai Lama in fact, if you read and heard what he tells Tibetans constantly, is that we were backward in our ways materially and in terms of the government (theocratic aristocracy). How can you blame a kid who was doing his Buddhist studies with no power whatsoever politically. You must know the facts, and moreover if you knew the mind and heart of the man, you would see why he is one of the most loved leaders in the world, not solely by followers of his faith or his nation, but people in general. He had ideas for transforming Tibet into a democracy as he has in exile (we Calgary Tibetans), but the Chinese already came and thrust upon Tibet the 17 point agreement. So although I appreciate your differing view, I must wholeheartedly disagree with it as someone who lives and breathes the cause, and has always insisted upon first understanding everything the Chinese are saying. Additionally, he is so anti-institution, he wants to do away with the Dalai Lama itself, although the people do not want that. He has said when Tibet wins its freedom the government in exile will dissolve and Tibet will be ruled as the people IN TIBET wish. He tells Tibetans all the time, it is not a struggle of himself (although all Tibetans pray he will return before he passes), it is a struggle of 6 million people. This is a man who tells the Tibetan people his main goal is the promotion of human values and religious harmony until death, and always refers to Chinese as his brothers and sisters although they have massacred Tibetan people and culture. He tells us Tibetans, that Tibetan freedom is secondary, and only because so many people rely on him, he has a moral obligation as the leader. May I ask what other leader would tell his own people that borders are only imaginary lines, and that we are all people that must learn to temper our anger with love for our enemies, as enemies are our most important teachers if we are to develop compassion. Please do not buy what the Chinese government says about him without further detailed investigation. Perhaps the people around him were corrupt, Tibet was not perfect (although this should not serve as a justification for China's invasion), but I assure you 100% the Dalai Lama is a man of peace and extremely kind-hearted.

[Rathji]

China has pushed and pushed to get what it wants, and will continute to do this as long as it is in a position of power economically.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

But it's their government. It's the one they fought a war over and cherish. They chastized and mocked democracy for decades by boasting that their government was the best in the world. They are very proud of this government. They are proud of losing their homes for the Olympic movement.

To them it is our government's lack of power that makes us out of control and no longer have any values.

Its not the peoples government, its the governments government, the people are a source of cheap and expendible labor. The part hacks don't think in terms of the peoples welfare or prosperity they think in terms of the nations wealth and prosperity, the people are just a tool to get it there.

At the end of the day the forms of communism that were put in place in Russia, in China, in North Korea and Cuba weren't voted in by people, they were imposed often by bloody revolution, and after that there is no choice in the matter, theres no way to hold the members of the party accountible by voting to switch, there's no choices. Beyond that once the party of the people is put into place, they then turn against the people as they become suspicious of their own benefactors. Look at the purges, look at the cultural revolution, look at the amount of money that China, the Soviet Union and Korea spend on internal security. Its massive because communist realize that once you get into power, the use of fear and intimidation is the path to control.

They chastized and mocked democracy only because they were told to and educated to mock democracy. I really doubt that any political sciences course educates people on the benefits of democracy, or the right to choose your nations direction.

All they hear about is the bad things about Democracy, that the elite exploit the classes. That crime is high, that the lower class lives in abject starvation level poverty.

China has never had a form of democracy that they've fought for. They've had dynastic succession, they've had military dictatorship and they've had communism. They've never been given a choice.

So of course they're proud of communism, they don't know anything else except the acceptants of being ruled by a pack of whip and gun bearing demi-gods who would think nothing of executing you and your family for whatever offends them.

[peter12]

Great posts by Cap'n Crunch and jammies. I don't think any of us who oppose the Chinese state hold any level of support for the myriad of atrocities conducted by authoritarian states, like Myanmar and Russia. I also don't think any of us have any support for the US prison camps, such as Guantanomo Bay. Injustice is injustice. China, in this case, has been guilty for a long time.

Why do people hate democracy in China? Because the last time, the young people of that country tried to take a stand against the Chinese government, they were run over by tanks.