What is middle class in Calgary?

[CliffFletcher]

The trades shortage is about class - in the social class sense of the term. It's almost unheard of for educated, white-collar parents to encourage their kids to go into the trades. It's considered a fall down the socio-economic ladder in a way that working at a help desk isn't. Even if the tradesperson makes $80k and the person at the call centre makes $40k. Which shows class isn't just about money.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The trades shortage is about class - in the social class sense of the term. It's almost unheard of for educated, white-collar parents to encourage their kids to go into the trades. It's considered a fall down the socio-economic ladder in a way that working at a help desk isn't. Even if the tradesperson makes $80k and the person at the call centre makes $40k. Which shows class isn't just about money.

I agree with this 100%. Canada has some bizarre stigma against tradespeople that needs to change. It becomes even stranger in the modern world, where technology is integrated into many trades. Many modern trades jobs require far more knowledge and intelligence than the vast majority of office jobs.

[ma-skis.com]

Originally Posted by blankall

I agree with this 100%. Canada has some bizarre stigma against tradespeople that needs to change. It becomes even stranger in the modern world, where technology is integrated into many trades. Many modern trades jobs require far more knowledge and intelligence than the vast majority of office jobs.

We just need to be aware of more famous tradespeople to remove the stigma, some of the most famous people in the world were carpenters... like Jesus.

[LChoy]

My perspective and maybe a slight defence of a "useless" degree

I don't think most students start out choosing to take a "useless" degree. People that take the liberal arts, I wager a majority of them start out hoping to get into law, teaching, or acquire the credentials to get into the Public service.
Those in the hard sciences, most I think are trying to get into Medical, dental, and other fields in the health system. Similarly those trying to become CAs and PMs, they would start by taking business courses.

And for those that get in, that's great and they are put on a path towards a professional degree, although having a job in that field is no longer a guarantee

However, many of those students will not be able to get into those professions. After that, a student has a couple of choices to make. Do they complete the undergrad they started on and find work related to it. Do they switch course and try to do something else, or do they continue to take more courses and further their marks and experience in hopes of getting accepted into something

I think engineering may be an exception as one of the few direct entry programs out of high school, but many of the other higher level professions are based on selection and take in only the best that apply. The reality is that not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or astronaut, and there will be a population of students with "useless" degrees that have to go somewhere because they didn't make it it to those upper level professions.

LChoy

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

My perspective and maybe a slight defence of a "useless" degree

I don't think most students start out choosing to take a "useless" degree. People that take the liberal arts, I wager a majority of them start out hoping to get into law, teaching, or acquire the credentials to get into the Public service.
Those in the hard sciences, most I think are trying to get into Medical, dental, and other fields in the health system. Similarly those trying to become CAs and PMs, they would start by taking business courses.

And for those that get in, that's great and they are put on a path towards a professional degree, although having a job in that field is no longer a guarantee

However, many of those students will not be able to get into those professions. After that, a student has a couple of choices to make. Do they complete the undergrad they started on and find work related to it. Do they switch course and try to do something else, or do they continue to take more courses and further their marks and experience in hopes of getting accepted into something

I think engineering may be an exception as one of the few direct entry programs out of high school, but many of the other higher level professions are based on selection and take in only the best that apply. The reality is that not everyone can be a doctor, lawyer, or astronaut, and there will be a population of students with "useless" degrees that have to go somewhere because they didn't make it it to those upper level professions.

LChoy

That's fair and likely true, but it also seems to reaffirm the point about the stigma around trades and where the North American post-secondary education system falls behind Europe.

As you said, not everyone can become a lawyer, but maybe we should have fewer people trying to become one in the first place (insert obligatory lawyers suck joke here). If there was less of a stigma around training for the trades, then maybe the people that are never going to make it to the finish line to be a lawyer anyways could save themselves a lot of time and money and just pursue another path.

[Knalus]

My take:

Boomers judge Millennials based on their rose colored memories of the way the world used to be - and it just isn't that way anymore. They then blame Millennials for making it that way.

Millennials judge Boomers on the fact they believed the world was a certain way (often taught that by their Boomer parents), and it just isn't. They then blame Boomers for not making it that way.

Honestly - they are both so similar in their blind spots. They deserve each other.

[PaperBagger'14]

Trades are a great way to get your foot in the door. Even as a first year apprentice in most trades you can carve out a humble life with guaranteed and substantial raises. I was that confused kid many years ago taking uni courses with no direction. I picked up a trade after that at random, liked the work enough to finish my ticket but not enough to make it my career. I've since went on to specialize my skillset and got a few more pieces of paper with my name on it. Now I live comfortably and have a job I love. I wouldn't have landed this job had it not been for my previous journeyman ticket.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The trades shortage is about class - in the social class sense of the term. It's almost unheard of for educated, white-collar parents to encourage their kids to go into the trades. It's considered a fall down the socio-economic ladder in a way that working at a help desk isn't. Even if the tradesperson makes $80k and the person at the call centre makes $40k. Which shows class isn't just about money.

I frequently have conversations about this with friends. I feel that we in Calgary are blessed with a mentality where blue collar and white collar respect one another (enough) that we can get along and work together. Most other cities/towns pit one against the other and consider the other side inferior.

Although not exact, I feel like there are enough people who believe the following:

Vancouver White > blue
Edmonton White =< Blue
Calgary White >= Blue
Regina White < Blue
Toronto White > Blue

I wonder if it's an oil and gas mentality where white collar is required for the projects and selling of the product, but they know very well that they need blue collar to help them get the product out of the ground in the first place.

This on top of the fact people seem so open in sharing salaries that many realize that the dude working on your elevator or a plumber can easily make $100K+ per year. This is generally more than the average white collar employee below management level here in the city.

I know coming from an Asian background, there is some serious stigma for blue collar careers. But my dad and I have been chatting with many other parents whose kids are in or contemplating blue collar and really trying to help them understand blue collar isn't that bad. If anything, many of those laughing at the blue collar vs white collar situation make less (ie: 80-90K as an analyst vs some blue collars making $100K+).

My dad has been convincing other Asian parents to change their mentality of blue collar. The pay isn't worth scoffing at, there's far less competition than white collar, and often times, allowing this concession allows for the parents to maintain a good relationship with their kids.

Going forward, I think I still lean slightly more towards white > blue collar, but I definitely would teach my son to not look down on blue collar as well as to spend time learning blue collar skills on the side to a decent level (ability to do basic home renos, basic car repairs etc.). I also have been trying to find opportunities to do my own repairs at home and strengthen my blue collar skills.

[CliffFletcher]

If I had better skills (and tools) myself, I could have saved the $650 we spent the other day for a plumber to not fix our toilet, not fix our outdoor gas fireplace, and replace an outdoor fawcett. Pretty good for 2 hours of work.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If I had better skills (and tools) myself, I could have saved the $650 we spent the other day for a plumber to not fix our toilet, not fix our outdoor gas fireplace, and replace an outdoor fawcett. Pretty good for 2 hours of work.

I hope he replaced it with a faucet.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

I hope he replaced it with a faucet.

Which would you rather have outdoors? A Faucet or a Fawcett?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Locke

Which would you rather have outdoors? A Faucet or a Fawcett?

Are we talking Kyle or Farrah?

[Hockeyguy15]

A Fawcett would probably have more curb appeal but I feel like they would be better off inside the house instead.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by blankall

We end up with armies of students graduating from useless arts programs and have to import tradespeople. The Canadian system needs to adjust the way they look at trades and post-secondary programs.

It's funny, people always discount arts degrees, but some of the most successful people I know have them. Photographers, Interior Designers, Architects, Graphic Designers...you can make a healthy living in these fields if you're good at what you do. Fine Arts or something like a Philosophy degree? Sure, good luck with that. But if you get a degree that can be applied to business, there is legitimate opportunity out there.

And when the robots come for all our jerbs, they are some of the tougher ones to automate.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It's funny, people always discount arts degrees, but some of the most successful people I know have them. Photographers, Interior Designers, Architects, Graphic Designers...you can make a healthy living in these fields if you're good at what you do. Fine Arts or something like a Philosophy degree? Sure, good luck with that. But if you get a degree that can be applied to business, there is legitimate opportunity out there.

And when the robots come for all our jerbs, they are some of the tougher ones to automate.

But all the things listed above are jobs that require a specific skill/training, and don't always require university degrees (I'm guessing Architecture might?)


The issue is people leave school without a particular skill that makes them valuable, then the reach the 'real world' and quickly realize if you don't have a particular skill you can do that most people can not, it is hard to find someone to pay you !


And worst now, with universities that primarily exist to make money lower entrance requirements, everyone can get in and get a basic degree, meaning that degree is useless when leaving, other then running up a large debt. So a whole bunch of people who never should have/needed to go to university did, and didn't learn a particular skill. But since everyone is now convince they have to go to university, it creates a self fullfilling system where everyone needs to pay for 4 years of 'schooling' and loose 4 years of potential income and training in a real job to get right to where they should have been leaving high school.



With youtube and group teleconferencing, the old university structure should be dieing. But instead it is thriving by utilizing fear, lowering entrance standards, and by become high school 2.0, but without even the requirement to take basic math and sciences! And you can go for free and drink by getting a loan and delay the need to earn for yourself a minimum of 4 years! Maybe even stretch to 6 or 8!

[Shazam]

Universities are lowering entrance standards? That's news to me. Maybe in certain "useless" programs.

[81MC]

I’ve never been more fulfilled at work then when I was on the tools. Sure, sometimes I cursed my job, working when sick was brutal, and sometime you did get exhausted. But at a desk, it feels like my life is slowly passing me by as I watch my body succumb to the death trap that is office ergonomics and my will to live is starved in the passionless daily ritual that is a computer screen.
The belief that trades is for those who can’t succceed in the acedemic world is as shallow as office politics. I know many who chose their career because they enjoy that line of work. I turned down a university education because I truly had a passion for the trade I took instead. The only sad reality is now that I’m in a more office environment, I’ve lost the competitive edge of being up to date in the trades and can’t afford to take a brief pay cut.
If you’re discussing options with your children, don’t speak of the trades as some sort of fall back option. While it’s true it is great for that, it can also be an actually rewarding career path. I’ve never seen so many people looking like they want to blow their brains out than witnesses walking through a business building.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

But all the things listed above are jobs that require a specific skill/training, and don't always require university degrees (I'm guessing Architecture might?)


The issue is people leave school without a particular skill that makes them valuable, then the reach the 'real world' and quickly realize if you don't have a particular skill you can do that most people can not, it is hard to find someone to pay you !


And worst now, with universities that primarily exist to make money lower entrance requirements, everyone can get in and get a basic degree, meaning that degree is useless when leaving, other then running up a large debt. So a whole bunch of people who never should have/needed to go to university did, and didn't learn a particular skill. But since everyone is now convince they have to go to university, it creates a self fullfilling system where everyone needs to pay for 4 years of 'schooling' and loose 4 years of potential income and training in a real job to get right to where they should have been leaving high school.



With youtube and group teleconferencing, the old university structure should be dieing. But instead it is thriving by utilizing fear, lowering entrance standards, and by become high school 2.0, but without even the requirement to take basic math and sciences! And you can go for free and drink by getting a loan and delay the need to earn for yourself a minimum of 4 years! Maybe even stretch to 6 or 8!

I'll agree that the university structure needs an overhaul.

but there is so much ignorance in your post about the value of a university education and how a university operates, I'm not sure where to start.

[Matata]

The prices the trades charge is the main fuel for my inner handy man. My motto is if using a professional would cost more than the tools needed to do a job, then I buy the tools, find a youtube video, and accept the fact I might get electrocuted a little bit.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

I frequently have conversations about this with friends. I feel that we in Calgary are blessed with a mentality where blue collar and white collar respect one another (enough) that we can get along and work together. Most other cities/towns pit one against the other and consider the other side inferior.

I know coming from an Asian background, there is some serious stigma for blue collar careers. But my dad and I have been chatting with many other parents whose kids are in or contemplating blue collar and really trying to help them understand blue collar isn't that bad. If anything, many of those laughing at the blue collar vs white collar situation make less (ie: 80-90K as an analyst vs some blue collars making $100K+).

I would say more blue collar vs white collar debate exists here because Alberta is a fantasy island bubble where blue collar workers can vastly out earn white collar workers in many cases.

In most of the rest of the world, blue collar work doesn't pay as much as white collar work, and the working conditions are much worse.

For instance one trade that seems to be hot in the area I grew up in is power lineman. They make $50+ per hour as a journeyman. Lots of them take work away jobs out east where they will work all the time and make $200,000 plus per year.

Stuff like that doesn't exist almost anywhere else in the world.