Yeah, and how do you say that doesn't still happen?
So your argument is that Bennett would be picked over Horvat because of his PPG, right?
So wouldn't Domi be picked over Horvat because of his PPG too? That obviously didn't happen.
Size, KHL flight risk, bad interview, who knows why the Canucks didn't choose the other players but all we can safely say is that they skipped over them. The simple fact is the 2013 had a lot of talent, and a player ranked as the 6th best North American by CSS fell down to 24th. I'll gladly take Bennett over Horvat any day but I'm not so sure you could say that about the Canucks and I'm far less sure that the Flames would take Monahan over Bennett for reasons I already said.
The 2013 was a great and talented draft by all accounts, it was going to come down to preference (maybe even need in regards to Nurse and Edmonton) once you fall below the 6th pick, in my opinion. I'd say the Oilers still pick Nurse because they want a defenseman and Bennett isn't that clear of an upgrade, it wasn't like MacKinnon had fallen to them. So 8-12 is where he would have gone in my opinion.
It's great that he was, but that only goes to show they were wrong. Ekblad and Reinhart, while maybe not in a tier completely above him, were far greater favourites at that number 1 spot. That's also the 2014 draft, the 2013 had easily more depth and arguably higher talent.
Speculative argument? On a hypothetical situation? You don't say...
You brought up Horvat's PPG, it's obviously the Canucks didn't draft him for that. You're bringing up CSS rankings while ignoring that if we went by them that Horvat would have been a late first round pick.
Reinhart was not 'far better'. By all accounts Reinhart and Bennett were an absolute toss up.
As for Domi getting more points than Horvat, yes but Horvat had other qualities that made the two close. Bennett's PPG was way better. Completely different. It's really not that hard to understand.
I like Poirier as well, but his ceiling isnt even in the same building as Bennetts.
What's a different building? 10 points difference in their primes? Maybe Bennett is a 80 point player and Poirer is a 70 point player?
Poirer was also stacked up against a deeper draft squad. Its tough to say where he'd be drafted this year. Poirer has also played at a level this season where he most likely have been selected earlier, if GMs knew then what we know now. He's putting up somewhat similar numbers to Domi (different leagues mind you), but Poirer is a rare type of player because of his sand paper element.
Poirer is bigger and plays on the right, making it easier to get minutes in the future for the Flames. That alone might give him higher point totals than Bennett on a 2017 (and beyond) Flames squad.
I'd bet Sieloff is in the opening night lineup this year.
Sieloff certainly is unique in his style of play and would certainly be a coach favorite, but missing an entire year of hockey in such a critical development stage must of really affected his game. We see veteran NHLers who fail to recover from severe injuries all the time, so Sieloff certainly has a tough road ahead. I wouldn't be surprised if he never catches up developmentally - leaving him a permanent AHLer.
But he's a warrior so I think he can get back into it quicker than most
I updated my prospect rankings for the new off season (linked in my signature). Top 5 (or 4 since Monahan isn't on this list) below.
Monahan: (Plays like: Ryan O’Reilly, Type: Top six 2-way centre) Monahan is a mature prospect whose greatest asset may be his elite level intelligence. He lacks elite offensive skills but has good playmaking ability and is an opportunistic scorer. He should be able to produce as a top 6 forward. He has high end defensive skills that need to mature at the NHL level. He does not initiate contact or play a physical game, but he has a large frame and doesn’t shy away from contact. Monahan had a mixed NHL debut starting with a strong offensive start (benefited by a high shooting percentage) that tapered off as the season progressed. He finished his season with decent offensive numbers but needs to improve his overall game at the NHL level.
Bennett: (Plays like: Doug Gilmour, Type: Top line offensive forward) Bennett is sure to be a career fan favorite due to his firecracker style of play and his never quit attitude. He has an elite but straight forward offensive skill set complimented by good speed and great hockey sense. Possesses an average frame but plays a physical high energy game. May project as a winger instead of a forward, though the Flames are hoping he sticks at centre.
Gaudreau: (Plays like: Patrick Kane, Type: Small top line offensive winger) He is the Flames most dynamic prospects with elite skill and offensive ability. In fact, he is one of the most dynamic prospects in hockey. He has only average foot speed but owns high end agility. Has a very small frame but is able to slip contact most of the time. Gaudreau looked a little out of place but still managed to score a goal in his single game NHL debut. He is likely AHL bound next season, but if he continues to perform he may make the Flames out of camp.
Baertschi: (Plays like: Alex Tanguay, Type: Top 6 offensive winger) After a stellar 5 game NHL call up a couple of seasons ago Baertschi was the Flames can’t miss prospect. Since then he has struggled to find consistency in the NHL or in the AHL. He is an average sized skill winger with a high level of creativity and good 2-way ability. Baertschi has high end hockey sense and projects as a playmaking winger in the NHL. He has good skating, elite offensive skills, and he has an underrated two-way game. Although his attitude has been in question that past two seasons He is previously notable for his love of the game and his overall work ethic. Baertschi is not a physical player and his creative game can suffer from a lack of confidence.
Poirier: (Plays like: Phill Kessel, Type: Top 6 offensive winger) Explosive is the most common description applied to Poirier. Despite an awkward skating style Poirier has high end acceleration and top end speed. He is also able to make plays at top speeds, has a strong shot, and has generally good offensive skills. Despite his left handed shot Poirier plays at right wing making him one of the Flames few prospects at that position. He has the frame and ability to play a physical game and does occasionally. His play could benefit from a more consistent physical game. Poirier has success when he drives the net. He needs to work on his defensive game, though he isn’t a liability defensively. Poirier had a very strong pro debut playing a few games in the AHL to end his season.
Bennett: (Plays like: Doug Gilmour, Type: Top line offensive forward) Bennett is sure to be a career fan favorite due to his firecracker style of play and his never quit attitude. He has an elite but straight forward offensive skill set complimented by good speed and great hockey sense. Possesses an average frame but plays a physical high energy game. May project as a winger instead of a forward, though the Flames are hoping he sticks at centre.
I'm curious to know why you think Bennett projects as a winger. From everything I've seen of him in game and in scouting reports, he should be just fine playing the middle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehatch
Gaudreau: (Plays like: Patrick Kane, Type: Small top line offensive winger) He is the Flames most dynamic prospects with elite skill and offensive ability. In fact, he is one of the most dynamic prospects in hockey. He has only average foot speed but owns high end agility. Has a very small frame but is able to slip contact most of the time. Gaudreau looked a little out of place but still managed to score a goal in his single game NHL debut. He is likely AHL bound next season, but if he continues to perform he may make the Flames out of camp.
I would say that Gaudreau's foot speed is quite a bit better than average.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kehatch
Baertschi: (Plays like: Alex Tanguay, Type: Top 6 offensive winger) After a stellar 5 game NHL call up a couple of seasons ago Baertschi was the Flames can’t miss prospect. Since then he has struggled to find consistency in the NHL or in the AHL. He is an average sized skill winger with a high level of creativity and good 2-way ability. Baertschi has high end hockey sense and projects as a playmaking winger in the NHL. He has good skating, elite offensive skills, and he has an underrated two-way game. Although his attitude has been in question that past two seasons He is previously notable for his love of the game and his overall work ethic. Baertschi is not a physical player and his creative game can suffer from a lack of confidence.
Alex Tanguay? That's sort of a strange comparative. Baertschi's game is a faster North/South game, and he does not have the same kind of vision that Tanguay has.
__________________
Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
Quote:
Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
I'm curious to know why you think Bennett projects as a winger. From everything I've seen of him in game and in scouting reports, he should be just fine playing the middle.
Personally I think he projects as either. Lots of reports have him listed as a C/W. Some as just a winger. Personally I think that is a bonus. It just gives us more options given the number of centre's in the system and the top centres available next draft.
Quote:
I would say that Gaudreau's foot speed is quite a bit better than average.
See below.
Quote:
Alex Tanguay? That's sort of a strange comparative. Baertschi's game is a faster North/South game, and he does not have the same kind of vision that Tanguay has.
I don't think its a strange comparison. Both are smallish players that don't play a physical game. Both are highly creative pass first players with decent two way ability.
It isn't a perfect comparison. None are. Just trying to reference play style. I agree that Tanguay has better vision for instance.
Who would you compare him to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by StrykerSteve
Anyone that says Gaudreau has average speed hasn't watch him skate. He was the fastest skater at development camp, by a mile.
I wasn't at development camp this year due to other commitments. But I have seen him skate. Here is a snippet from Hockey Prospectus:
Quote:
The Bad: Look at his height/weight splits and it says it all. He's small and needs a boatload of muscle. While Gaudreau is a fine skater who has a solid top gear and is agile, he isn't a high-end one that you would normally want a 5'7'' player to be.
Pretty much sums up my viewings of him. The guy looks fast in a game because he can make plays at top speed, he is super agile, and is positioning is bang on. But his straight line speed hasn't been great in my viewings. (That doesn't mean bad).
That said, if he has improved his skating and is one of the faster players out there then great. Lets just see how he does when he is up against NHL players in main camp (and some pretty fast ones at that).
The Following User Says Thank You to kehatch For This Useful Post:
I updated my prospect rankings for the new off season (linked in my signature). Top 5 (or 4 since Monahan isn't on this list) below.
Monahan: (Plays like: Ryan O’Reilly, Type: Top six 2-way centre) Monahan is a mature prospect whose greatest asset may be his elite level intelligence. He lacks elite offensive skills but has good playmaking ability and is an opportunistic scorer. He should be able to produce as a top 6 forward. He has high end defensive skills that need to mature at the NHL level. He does not initiate contact or play a physical game, but he has a large frame and doesn’t shy away from contact. Monahan had a mixed NHL debut starting with a strong offensive start (benefited by a high shooting percentage) that tapered off as the season progressed. He finished his season with decent offensive numbers but needs to improve his overall game at the NHL level.
Bennett: (Plays like: Doug Gilmour, Type: Top line offensive forward) Bennett is sure to be a career fan favorite due to his firecracker style of play and his never quit attitude. He has an elite but straight forward offensive skill set complimented by good speed and great hockey sense. Possesses an average frame but plays a physical high energy game. May project as a winger instead of a forward, though the Flames are hoping he sticks at centre.
Gaudreau: (Plays like: Patrick Kane, Type: Small top line offensive winger) He is the Flames most dynamic prospects with elite skill and offensive ability. In fact, he is one of the most dynamic prospects in hockey. He has only average foot speed but owns high end agility. Has a very small frame but is able to slip contact most of the time. Gaudreau looked a little out of place but still managed to score a goal in his single game NHL debut. He is likely AHL bound next season, but if he continues to perform he may make the Flames out of camp.
Baertschi: (Plays like: Alex Tanguay, Type: Top 6 offensive winger) After a stellar 5 game NHL call up a couple of seasons ago Baertschi was the Flames can’t miss prospect. Since then he has struggled to find consistency in the NHL or in the AHL. He is an average sized skill winger with a high level of creativity and good 2-way ability. Baertschi has high end hockey sense and projects as a playmaking winger in the NHL. He has good skating, elite offensive skills, and he has an underrated two-way game. Although his attitude has been in question that past two seasons He is previously notable for his love of the game and his overall work ethic. Baertschi is not a physical player and his creative game can suffer from a lack of confidence.
Poirier: (Plays like: Phill Kessel, Type: Top 6 offensive winger) Explosive is the most common description applied to Poirier. Despite an awkward skating style Poirier has high end acceleration and top end speed. He is also able to make plays at top speeds, has a strong shot, and has generally good offensive skills. Despite his left handed shot Poirier plays at right wing making him one of the Flames few prospects at that position. He has the frame and ability to play a physical game and does occasionally. His play could benefit from a more consistent physical game. Poirier has success when he drives the net. He needs to work on his defensive game, though he isn’t a liability defensively. Poirier had a very strong pro debut playing a few games in the AHL to end his season.
I'm not so sure about the bolded. Seems to me, albeit from limited viewings, that Poirier plays with much more of a physical edge than Kessel.
I think if you had watched him at development camp and even in the BC games, you wouldn't call his skating average. It is definitely above average. To me the snippet you quoted doesn't say he is an 'average' skater, it says he isn't elite. That's my interpretation.
When you look at these projections just for the top 5 prospects you have to be pretty excited for the flames going forward... And that's not even getting into guys like Reinhart, granlund, klimchuk, Wotherspoon, sieloff, jankowski, etc.
The flames seem loaded with hockey sense and speed in the future. We all agree they need a top end defenseman prospect and that may come soon enough in the next draft or who knows maybe developed from within. That can happen too. Look at a guy like Brodie... He was never projected to be as good as he is - otherwise he wouldn't have been a 4th round pick. He was developed properly and patiently by this organization and is now a legitimate top line NHL defensemen. I think back to 2009 when he wowed everyone in training camp and got a look in a few regular season games but the team was patient with him and sent him back down.
Looking back now, I think Darryl sutter did do a good job at properly developing a few prospects despite most of us... Including me at the time... Being frustrated with how he kept us waiting. We wanted backlund to be iginla's #1 center so bad and we wanted the spot given to him earlier than he was ready. I remember thinking it was ridiculous to try and force feed a defensive game on backlund.... That it would ruin his natural offensive skill. I was very wrong cause backlund has developed a valuable 2-way game that is rare in the NHL for 24 year old centermen. Look at what to he oilers did to gagner and look at what the flames have done with backlund... The flames could get way more value for backlund (a late first round pick) than the oilers did for gagner (a 5th overall pick) at this point.
I think they did the same with Reinhart as well and he's turned into another great prospect.
Last edited by stemit14; 07-12-2014 at 09:12 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to stemit14 For This Useful Post:
Poirier and Sven at this juncture are not better prospects than Granlund. But that's only my take as I am an admitted Granlund fan boy.
I'm aware that there are only a small number of CP posters/Flames fans who concur with me but Granlund has been riding the underdog train since he was drafted.
He is not his brother, but his game is tailor made for the NHL. Mark my words (again haha), he will be a key cog in Calgary's success going forward.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dammage79 For This Useful Post:
He is EXTREMELY underrated by so many. He's passed Baertschi in my mind on the depth chart and is far ahead of Gaudreau and Bennett as far as development needed to play in the NHL is. This is a kid who is NHL ready this year, who if he plays a full year, a Calder candidate. He makes opposing defence look like fools on the ice, he has amazing speed, he can shoot and pass. He is the total package, he is our something special, he just doesn't have that shiny wrapper that was placed on Gaudreau, Bennett or Monahan so no one notices. If you followed the Heat last year, Granlund (and Ortio) easily were the standout players that almost come out of nowhere and just seemed to put their development on fast forward.
Granlund has played against men and shown he can keep up and excel. He is going to be an important part of the Flames future. I think he is one of the guys who makes the team out of camp while Bennett and Gaudreau are sent to the minors/AHL.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Drury18 For This Useful Post:
Reinhart was not 'far better'. By all accounts Reinhart and Bennett were an absolute toss up.
As for Domi getting more points than Horvat, yes but Horvat had other qualities that made the two close. Bennett's PPG was way better. Completely different. It's really not that hard to understand.
I never said far better. I said far greater favourites at making the number 1 pick. Evidently, considering Ekblad went first and Buffalo took Reinhart 2nd I don't really see any argument to that.
And I feel like you're missing the point about Horvat as you keep bringing up PPG. He wasn't picked for his PPG, pure and simple. There were several players with far greater statistical seasons picked behind Horvat, some players like Mantha were picked quite a few spots below him. Horvat was chosen where he was, for better or worse for Canuck fans, because of his two-way play. He was considered the most "complete" player in the draft by pretty much everyone. Not everyone had him ranked in the top 10 but everyone saw his strong face-off, strong defensive play, leadership and signs of offense in his draft year. The comparisons he received to players like Bergeron and O'Reilly weren't completely unfair - and neither of those players had that great of PPG either heading into their drafts. If Gillis thought Horvat was the next Bergeron, and remember Gillis has first hand experience and probably nightmares going up against Bergeron, he would have most definitely though about taking Horvat over Bennett given the opportunity. That doesn't mean he would be right or that Bennett is a worse prospect or anything like that, just that Gillis was high on Horvat, low PPG and all.
For the 2013, and I have the luxury of retrospect, but I think there was a couple tiers:
Tier 1: MacKinnon
Tier 2: Jones, Barkov and Drouin
Tier 3: Lindholm and Monahan
Tier 4: Pretty much everyone picked between 7-15 of the draft (Nichushkin is here because of the KHL factor or I would probably have him higher).
I don't know if there would be much disagreement with that, seemed to be generally accepted prior to the draft last year. So where does Bennett fit? I'd put him below Monahan.
As for your own words, at least before the were chosen to be a Canuck and a Flame:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
I think either Monahan or Lindholm will still be there at #8, and if not you settle fo Horvat
You yourself didn't seem to be so low on Horvat prior to the draft either. Seemingly putting him just below Monahan and Lindholm in a similar fashion to me. At the same time, I guess you disagree with my tiers if you thought there was a chance of Monahan and Lindholm being available at 8.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root
If Monahan were in this year's draft, he would be in the conversation for top 3, IMO, ahead of Bennett
And yet you also put Monahan ahead of Bennett a couple months ago.
So, by your own words that I don't think I'm reading in to deeply, Horvat was just behind Monahan and Monahan was ahead of Bennett. Seems to me they would be in about that same tier then. No?
And yet you also put Monahan ahead of Bennett a couple months ago.
So, by your own words that I don't think I'm reading in to deeply, Horvat was just behind Monahan and Monahan was ahead of Bennett. Seems to me they would be in about that same tier then. No?
I personally think
Bennett
Monahan
Horvat.
Monahan's aproven NHLer, Horvat is not. Monahan has a higher ceiling
