Racism at Calgary Bars?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You can bring your ABC scenarios and formulas into it all you want, and claim to be wanting all of the facts, but the issue is pretty simple. Racism exists when it comes to Calgary nightclubs. You seem to be doing everything you can to dance around that conclusion.

First of all- the ABC example was simply to illustrate that not every time a person who is a minority is told "no"; is it a case of discrimination. I brought that up to show an example of how somebody could be told no but it not be discrimination. You will also notice that in that same example; most of my cases showed discrimination. (2 out of 3.)

The reason I am "dancing around the conclusion" is that I think that for there to be a solution, there has to be proof. So far Windsor has given quantitative reponses, as opposed to "I see it happen a lot." And the reason for asking this is from my (brief) study of phsycology in University, all humans tend to remember the bad and not the good. A classic example is the thread a while back on the McKenzie Towne traffic circle. I chimed in there as well saying that almost always I see somebody get cut off, when in reality I use the dang thing almost every day and it's probably 1 in 10 that something happens. Granted in the discrimination issue 1 in 10 is still way, way too high, but from what Windsor has said it happens most of the time to him.

I am genuinely trying to help. Perhaps some of my solutions may not work, but that all part of having a discussion. I suggested a boycott en mass and that was rejected. My next suggestion was to file a human rights complaint, and haven't heard anything back yet. Hopefully that is because a number of people have just started the complaint process, and are waiting to hear something back before posting.

If the intention of most of the posters affected is to rant, then please go ahead and do so. But let the rest of us know that it is indeed a rant and that you aren't looking for a discussion on the matter.

[RedMan12]

man if I went to a club with my fiance who is Japanese and she got denied and I was able to enter I would freak out. I dont care how many juice monkies kick my butt in the back alley.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by ken0042

If the intention of most of the posters affected is to rant, then please go ahead and do so. But let the rest of us know that it is indeed a rant and that you aren't looking for a discussion on the matter.

It's a sensitive subject, and I think because of that fact, you should be understanding. You, being a "non-coloured" person can not relate to the things which people in this thread have experienced. You have never been turned away from a club in Calgary because you were white.

If you step back and imagine yourself being restricted from a public business based solely because of the colour of your skin, then maybe you'll realize why some of the people in here are "ranting" and angry. Their anger is justified.

As for solutions, I think there are numerous other solutions as you mentioned to this apparent widespread problem in Calgary. Filing complaints with the Human Rights Commission is a good one, but I think the businesses also have other solutions, which are probably more expensive than what they employ now, which is why they aren't being used.

Personally, I think the whole "Members Only" idea is a good idea, but with the privacy issues and all that, I highly doubt it could get done. If it weren't for those issues, owners could take a snapshot of members, record their driver license numbers and names, and with a video camera aimed at the entrance of a club, quickly pinpoint who exactly is causing the problems at the clubs and proceed with banning them from the establishment.

EDITED: Because apparently, the city in discussion wasn't clear to rubecube.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

It's a sensitive subject, and I think because of that fact, you should be understanding. You, being a "non-coloured" person can not relate to the things which people in this thread have experienced. You have never been turned away from a club because you were white.

It happened to a couple of white girls I was with in Mexico.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It happened to a couple of white girls I was with in Mexico.

And how about Calgary?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

And how about Calgary?

Merely responding to this:

You have never been turned away from a club because you were white.

And no I haven't been turned away in Calgary but I've been hassled until they ran out of excuses not to let me in.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Merely responding to this:



And no I haven't been turned away in Calgary but I've been hassled until they ran out of excuses not to let me in.

Okay, so it's a question of semantics then. I'll change that in my first post to something more specific with the word 'Calgary'. I thought it would be obvious.

[ken0042]

There are examples of racism against whites, but I am think there's no way it's as common as it is against non-whites. I can think of 2 examples for myself. One was when I was enquiring about joining a police force in Manitoba. My dad; who worked for that police force; was told in confidence for me to not get my hopes up, as their recruting drive was aimed at non-whites.

Now, with police I can understand it as there should be some representation of the population, so that if a Chinese grandmother who has lived in Canada for 2 years has her house broken into, she can speak to an officer in the language that is comfortable to her. (And many other good reasons too.)

The second time it happened was in University; it was 1994 and state of the art computers were 486's running Windows 3.1. The library had 386's running DOS, but every special interest group had 486's paid for by the school. (It showed up on my tuition receipt.) That meant the women's group, the gay & lesbian group, and the Native group all had access to good computers paid for by all the students, but as a white straight male I didn't. When I suggested we should have a Men's group, I was told the special groups were just for minorities. I then pointed out that the University population was about 55% women, but I was told that nothing could be done.

Granted, these examples are the only two that stick out for me, so it's not like I have to live with racism every day. I just wanted to clarify that I do know it sucks when somebody says no because of the way you were born. Obviously not to the same extent that some posters may have to endure, but it does happen to us every once in a while.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by ken0042

There are examples of racism against whites, but I am think there's no way it's as common as it is against non-whites. I can think of 2 examples for myself. One was when I was enquiring about joining a police force in Manitoba. My dad; who worked for that police force; was told in confidence for me to not get my hopes up, as their recruting drive was aimed at non-whites.

Now, with police I can understand it as there should be some representation of the population, so that if a Chinese grandmother who has lived in Canada for 2 years has her house broken into, she can speak to an officer in the language that is comfortable to her. (And many other good reasons too.)

The second time it happened was in University; it was 1994 and state of the art computers were 486's running Windows 3.1. The library had 386's running DOS, but every special interest group had 486's paid for by the school. (It showed up on my tuition receipt.) That meant the women's group, the gay & lesbian group, and the Native group all had access to good computers paid for by all the students, but as a white straight male I didn't. When I suggested we should have a Men's group, I was told the special groups were just for minorities. I then pointed out that the University population was about 55% women, but I was told that nothing could be done.

Granted, these examples are the only two that stick out for me, so it's not like I have to live with racism every day. I just wanted to clarify that I do know it sucks when somebody says no because of the way you were born. Obviously not to the same extent that some posters may have to endure, but it does happen to us every once in a while.

There is no excuse to hire people based on race. Take the best person for the job. I get what your saying about the police but it just doesnt work that way. I have seen many examples where they lower the requirements for visible minorities just to fill their ranks with them. That is a safety hazard for both the other officers and the public. The police could hire a third generation chinese canadian because they want to represent the chinese community, but the chances are this thrid generation chinese canadian has the same knowledge as the 5th generation white boy about chinese language and culture.

Take the best person for the job not just because they represent a portion of the community.

[Pagal4321]

Umm, not gonna read ALL of what I've missed.
But racism doesn't just mean discrimination against browns and asians...white people will experience racism at the same time. I just thought that was common sense.

Are white people preferrable to have in clubs from an owners standpoint...sure because statistically I'm sure the numbers would show that they cause less "distrubances"...now that's strictly an assumption by me. But from, even MY OWN EXPERIENCES, is that the colored ones are the ones that would generally cause "distrubances".

[HelloHockeyFans]

Originally Posted by Pagal4321

Umm, not gonna read ALL of what I've missed.
But racism doesn't just mean discrimination against browns and asians...white people will experience racism at the same time. I just thought that was common sense.

Are white people preferrable to have in clubs from an owners standpoint...sure because statistically I'm sure the numbers would show that they cause less "distrubances"...now that's strictly an assumption by me. But from, even MY OWN EXPERIENCES, is that the colored ones are the ones that would generally cause "distrubances".

Wow. Just... wow.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

Wow. Just... wow.

What's the problem??

Say I pick 11 instances at a club where I've seen security have to get involved and deal with troublemakers. 6 out of those 10 involved hardcore brown kids going after each other. 3 were pretty bad asian conflicts and 2 were white guys going at it.
So because of a few bad apples, like the hardcore brown kids that feel the need to be tough to show their manhood, brown guys, like myself, get racially profiled at clubs.

What's so wow about it.

[HelloHockeyFans]

The trouble with your analysis is the sweeping generalizations you're implying. So by your personal account, more coloured people are involved in melees, therefore the owners holding a racist policy is justified?

'Cause hey, if if some of them are like that, chances are, most of them are like that.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

The trouble with your analysis is the sweeping generalizations you're implying. So by your personal account, more coloured people are involved in melees, therefore the owners holding a racist policy is justified?

'Cause hey, if if some of them are like that, chances are, most of them are like that.

You think I think it's justified?
No the sweeping generalizations are bull****, and affect alot of people, me included. I mean I have a hard time getting in ANYWHERE these days, as mentioned in my post on Page 3.
But there is a few bad apples in every bunch that spoil it for the rest of us. So from a business perspective I can see why it happends, but these businesses are being lazy.
Instead of installing higher security standards they are turning people away...illegally.

[HelloHockeyFans]

^^ Yeah, I think I misunderstood you dude.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by HelloHockeyFans

^^ Yeah, I think I misunderstood you dude.

Thought so...but we on the same page now?

Not saying I AGREE WITH ALL THAT'S GOING ON... I mean I'm completely against it, as it directly affects me all the time. But I can sorta see where the businesses get the generalizations from, but that gives them no right to be lazy about getting their clubs safer.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Obviously this is a big deal to some people and rightly so. To those I say do something about it. You should realize that you, as a consumer, can.

If you approach it the right way, you actually might make headway. You're unlikely to shut the business down, but you certainly within your legal rights to draw public attention to its practices.

Take the Gandhi approach. Some of you may be students -- I would suggest approaching as many visible minority clubs on campus for a mass congregation in front of one of these establishments (I would choose the biggest and most blatant discriminator). One hundred or two hundred people lined up on the sidewalk around the perimenter of the block might get your point across.

Of importance of, course, is to remain unflailingly civil and record everything. No angry chanting, no placards, no attempting to stop others from entering. Keep it above board.

[Bobblehead]

There was a quick follow-up story about this on Global news last night.

There is a "Sound off" link on Global Calgary's website. link


Edit: I wonder, with this issue in the public eye right now, if there will be a sudden drop in racial profiling, at least for the near future?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

Take the Gandhi approach.

What is that supposed to mean? Just because its been happening to east indians, eh??

[pepper24]

Sorry, I didn't catch any of this debate on Global TV but have a few questions........were the subjects over 25 years old and what kind of clothing were they wearing?