[Rumour] Friedman: Treliving looking to add a 1st for 2018 draft. Coyotes won't sign Hickey.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What's the plan then?

Trade 1st round pick for hamonic, keep core together, miss playoffs, deal core member to get 1st round pick back?

If that's the plan, does it sound like a good plan?

If that's not the plan, then I guess this season didn't go according to plan and they are changing things? Wouldn't that signify no plan?

I've seen this power struggle in other private businesses. So many plans there might as well not be one.

Afterall, this is what I said:



If the Plan from the start of the year has changed drastically by this point, to me that's an indication there is no plan. Otherwise, why not stick to it? Why not 'trust the process'? Process no good?

Maybe the addition of Valimaki, the emergence of Kulak as an everyday NHLer, and strong AHL seasons from Andersson and Kylington has altered the plan a bit?

Maybe Flames management feels they can get away with dealing a core Dman now because they have younger D ready to step up?

Obviously missing the playoffs was not the plan, but maybe they felt all along like they could deal a 1st+ for Hamonic to shore up the D for a season and if the young D looked more ready a year later they could recoup that pick by dealing a top 4 Dman?

I dunno, seems plausible.

[Flash Walken]

Ah, the ol' "Recoup the pick at the Draft after missing the playoffs" strategy.

Seems like a novel approach, not sure I've seen that one before. Definitely not by the Flames.

It's really hard not to be sarcastic about this. Evaluate the season as a strategic direction: the plan was deal for hamonic and make the playoffs and it was ultimately a bad plan, or the plan was deal for hamonic, miss the playoffs, panic move to get 1st rounder back which to me constitutes no plan.

I think it's a better indication they have a plan if they don't trade for a 1st rounder than if they do. It may be stubborn refusal to depart from the process, but at least it would be an indication that there was, indeed, a process.

[Stanley]

Habs have sooo many picks.
Make a deal with them...Bergevin will bite.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You're going to use a draft pick and a trade from 2014 to demonstrate undue influence from Burke in 2018?

Shazam also posted a list.

Again, do you think Burke does nothing or has no influence?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What's the plan then?

Trade 1st round pick for hamonic, keep core together, miss playoffs, deal core member to get 1st round pick back?

If that's the plan, does it sound like a good plan?

If that's not the plan, then I guess this season didn't go according to plan and they are changing things? Wouldn't that signify no plan?

I've seen this power struggle in other private businesses. So many plans there might as well not be one.

Afterall, this is what I said:

If the Plan from the start of the year has changed drastically by this point, to me that's an indication there is no plan. Otherwise, why not stick to it? Why not 'trust the process'? Process no good?

Well clearly they didn't plan to miss the playoffs, I guess you're being tongue in cheek.

I don't see much of a departure needed to get this rumour out there.

Adding Hamonic and Stone was always about fortifying d core one knowing full well that d core two was coming as well.

At some point they'd have to make room.

They may feel that that time is now, and are talking to teams at the GM meetings about current defensemen and in that the conversation has been around wingers, or forwards that can score and draft picks to replenish what they've moved.

I don't see moving veteran D as a sign of no plan as it was always the obvious plan to me, and hasn't really changed.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well clearly they didn't plan to miss the playoffs, I guess you're being tongue in cheek.

I don't see much of a departure needed to get this rumour out there.

Adding Hamonic and Stone was always about fortifying d core one knowing full well that d core two was coming as well.

At some point they'd have to make room.

They may feel that that time is now, and are talking to teams at the GM meetings about current defensemen and in that the conversation has been around wingers, or forwards that can score and draft picks to replenish what they've moved.

I don't see moving veteran D as a sign of no plan as it was always the obvious plan to me, and hasn't really changed.

Well now the conversation has changed from moving a core piece to moving some jabroni 3rd pairing defender.

Mark Stone doesn't get you a 1st round draft pick in my opinion, so if they are trading into the 1st round, they are moving a 'core' player to do it.

So are you saying they are considering moving brodie or giordano, the only other two vets besides stone and hamonic, and that that was part of the plan last summer when they added hamonic? Sounds pretty 4 dimensional chessy to me.

[MacDaddy77]

What's the worst thing that can happen by moving Dmen for RW help and Picks?? Flames miss the playoffs next year? They missed with the group they have so might as well try.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Well now the conversation has changed from moving a core piece to moving some jabroni 3rd pairing defender.

Mark Stone doesn't get you a 1st round draft pick in my opinion, so if they are trading into the 1st round, they are moving a 'core' player to do it.

So are you saying they are considering moving brodie or giordano, the only other two vets besides stone and hamonic, and that that was part of the plan last summer when they added hamonic? Sounds pretty 4 dimensional chessy to me.

I didn't change the conversation at all.

I said adding Hamonic and Stone was about fortifying the current core, I didn't say Stone was the principal piece they're looking to move for a first, though Mark might get you a first if you can get the Senators to give you their return for trading him.

The plan would always have been to move veteran defenseman when it was time to make space for young defenders breaking in. I have no idea what defenseman is on the move or being talked about, but I would assume no GM would have that in stone a year ago.

How has this conversation changed exactly?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Shazam also posted a list.

Again, do you think Burke does nothing or has no influence?

Shazam posted a list of guys who combined take up four spots at the very bottom of the playing line-up. Hardly a Burke team.

Also, your attempt to force me into the defensive is not only meaningless and irrelevant - but already answered in my original comment. You're the one claiming that a hypothetical situation that has not come to pass is the result of Brian Burke wielding undue influence. The fact that your only arguments to back this up are two moves from four years ago is informative.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What's the plan then?

Trade 1st round pick for hamonic, keep core together, miss playoffs, deal core member to get 1st round pick back?

If that's the plan, does it sound like a good plan?

If that's not the plan, then I guess this season didn't go according to plan and they are changing things? Wouldn't that signify no plan?

I've seen this power struggle in other private businesses. So many plans there might as well not be one.

Afterall, this is what I said:



If the Plan from the start of the year has changed drastically by this point, to me that's an indication there is no plan. Otherwise, why not stick to it? Why not 'trust the process'? Process no good?

Maybe the plan is being modified and altered due to the season not working out.

Seriously, this thread starts on a rumour/suggestion Flames are looking to add a 1st. And now we're discussing how they've unraveled and have no plan? Or too many plans which is no plan?

Assumptions are being made on how the off-season goes. I'm going to wait and see what actually happens.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The plan would always have been to move veteran defenseman when it was time to make space for young defenders breaking in. I have no idea what defenseman is on the move or being talked about, but I would assume no GM would have that in stone a year ago.

How has this conversation changed exactly?

^^^THIS

As I said earlier, maybe Flames didn't think young defenders were ready last summer, and maybe they think they are ready now.

So the PLAN was to fortify the D for the 2017/18 season knowing that if the young defenders took steps forward you could potentially recoup that pick at a later date.

And AGAIN, obviously missing the playoffs was not part of that plan, but it happened. Sucks that you likely can't get back a better pick pick than the one you gave up because of that miss, but still doesn't change your ability to get one back if you feel it's time to make room on the back end.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I didn't change the conversation at all.

I said adding Hamonic and Stone was about fortifying the current core, I didn't say Stone was the principal piece they're looking to move for a first, though Mark might get you a first if you can get the Senators to give you their return for trading him.

The plan would always have been to move veteran defenseman when it was time to make space for young defenders breaking in. I have no idea what defenseman is on the move or being talked about, but I would assume no GM would have that in stone a year ago.

How has this conversation changed exactly?

so who was the veteran defenseman being moved out that was part of the plan?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Shazam posted a list of guys who combined take up four spots at the very bottom of the playing line-up. Hardly a Burke team.

Those are the kinds of players Burke likes. They are next to useless in today's NHL. Well whatever the case is any person with proxy in an NHL team that thinks those were actually good pickups needs their head checked.

Say, who re-upped Stajan anyhow?

And although people seem to be amused by Burke's dishevelled appearance, I see it as a sign of ill mental health.

[stang]

GM's remind me of kids, (all GM's this isnt just singling out BT or any one GM)

"If I can get this one really good thing, you don't have to get me any presents for my birthday or Christmas this year.. please!"

Get item, then at Christmas.. "Well I want my Christmas Presents"

[stang]

Wonder if Ottawa would give up a 1st to get rid of Ryan....

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

so who was the veteran defenseman being moved out that was part of the plan?

Already answered that.

They didn't need to have a "player X will be traded in 11.4 months" memo that they all carried around in their brief case.

June 2017 they drafted Valimaki making it two right and two left shooting defenseman that were considered above average prospects.

None of them were ready to step in on a team that they felt was a playoff ready team.

But when they are they would make room or trade them for equivalent prospects up front.

A year later it looks like Andersson is ready, Kylington has taken steps and Valimaki is seeing his projection bumped up.

Now they kick tires on the value of their existing defenseman and see what is out there for options.

This seems unlikely to you?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Shazam posted a list of guys who combined take up four spots at the very bottom of the playing line-up. Hardly a Burke team.

Also, your attempt to force me into the defensive is not only meaningless and irrelevant - but already answered in my original comment. You're the one claiming that a hypothetical situation that has not come to pass is the result of Brian Burke wielding undue influence. The fact that your only arguments to back this up are two moves from four years ago is informative.

Of course I can't back it up. I never claimed to have inside knowledge or anything like that. I never stated any of it as fact. This is a discussion board, and I'm simply mentioned some acquisitions that seem to completely contradict Treliving's desire to build a strong possession team.

Burke has definitely influenced many of this team's transactions. The owners of this team certainly aren't paying him a salary to do nothing.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by stang

Wonder if Ottawa would give up a 1st to get rid of Ryan....

They owe Colorado a 1st from this year or next, so no. Not likely.

[CalgaryFan1988]

If the LD wasn't so weak I'd move Giordano in a heartbeat. At 34 his value is going to decline from here on out.

[868904]

I just don't see this whole "give a damn thing" issue.

It's just an easy cop out for poor coaching. I don't even want to go into it again, as i'm sick of talking about the guy. Many here saw the problem at the midpoint of the season, when GG had a season and a half to show what he could do. Tre should have saw it too.

- This team has not been able to play well consistently under GG;
- This team under GG, has no identity;
- GG refuses to manage in-game. Never line matches, never plays the guys that are going and always roles 4 lines regardless of the situation. GG refuses to adapt during a game, and is stubborn to his preset game plan, which is contradictory to what we know that successful coaches do;
- The defensive system is atrocious. Everyone just backs off and gives the opposition time and space, which is completely contradictory to what you should be doing which is eliminating time and space;
- The players seem to have free reign, this was alluded to in training camp with Versteeg's comments about how lucky the players are to have GG as coach and how easy they have it. Also explains why guys take such long shifts, it's amazing how long they stay out there, get gassed, get hemmed in defensively and get scored upon. What ever happened to an all out 30 sec shift? Let's not forget that 2 minute OT shift that Brouwer had when GG had the chance to take him off and get fresh legs out there, but no, apparently Brouwer waived GG off and so GG thought it was fine to leave him out there. The coach needs to take leadership and make these decisions, not the players.

Tkachuck cares, Gaudreau cares, Smith cares, Gio cares, Hamonic cares, Bennett cares. These are the obvious guys you see who openly give a damn. The other guys are more reserved but it doesn't mean they don't care.

This team just has crap coaching.