New Downtown?

[Fobulous]

I heard a random rumor that Calgary was looking to decentralize its downtown core. Anyone else heard the same?

It would be an interesting concept if true...

Just wanted to see if there was any truth to the rumor.

-FoB.

[foofighter15]

Pretty sure they are re-urbanizeing downtown. If they were decentralizing downtown, you wouldn't see new towers going up, and you wouldn't see road work making it easier to get there

[JD]

Great. More places I can't afford to park.

[Canada 02]

Calgary Transportation Plan (aka Go Plan)

the idea was to have business nodes all along the LRT corridors. high density housing, retail and office space so people could live near where they work, thus alleviating traffic issues into the core. This was back in the days of that idiot Al Duerr.

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server....lan/Vision.htm

[Ozy_Flame]

Go watch "Radiant City" by Gary Burns, a local filmmaker who wrote the memorable "Waydowntown." RC is about Calgary's urban sprawl problem, how the decentralized 'power centers' have failed in the suburbs, and how one typical Calgary family deals living in the maze of pseudo-conjoined houses in cookie-cutter format. It takes a sensical approach on Burn's part, but a cynical approach on the family in the story. Very interesting to watch.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

Calgary Transportation Plan (aka Go Plan)

the idea was to have business nodes all along the LRT corridors. high density housing, retail and office space so people could live near where they work, thus alleviating traffic issues into the core. This was back in the days of that idiot Al Duerr.

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server....lan/Vision.htm

Just got confirmation from a high-level source.

This plan is still very much in effect, and once the LRT is extended into the SW (whenever that happens), this urban density plan takes off like a lightning bolt.

[Claeren]

OMG, a high level source.... !? *shakes head*

UNFORTUNATELY it is partially true, that they are trying to get SOME business to decentralize from the primary core and move into other business nodes around the city.

Fortunately the biggest and most important business are staying downtown. Considering that EVERY great city in North America has a great downtown and that it is one of our primary advantages in the north american market we better hope it does not go too far either.


To be honest, most of the business setting up outside the core are being pushed out by higher rents and lack of space (or in other words competiton from the big money O&G companies) more so than they are willfully moving to the suburbs because of some plan to move them there.


It is a HORRIBLE plan though that only increases traffic congestion over the long term. Plus numerous studies have shown people working in office parks in the suburbs have lower morale than downtown office workers and as someone who does work in a 'node' office park (Southland Plaza) it is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE place to work!! No chance to network, hard to meet up with people for lunch etc, hard to get to if one spouse works on one side of the city and the other spouse works on the other side of the city, no good restaurants or coffee shops, no good shopping, no good street energy, etc.

And shockingly the parking situation is not even that great!! Downtown you have say 200 spots for every 1000 workers BUT the other workers can easily take transit or carpool (even if it is with their spouse/gf-bf/etc) or ride a bike, etc. Versus at office nodes (where they COULD take transit across the city for HOURS on end - and no one does - in my office area of ~300 workers only 2 or 3 do) where there are 500 spots for every 1000 workers (great, right?) but 900 of them, at LEAST, HAVE to drive! It is actually a lesser situation!!


Sounds good on paper to some people i guess, but sucks ASS in reality.


Claeren.

[sadora]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Go watch "Radiant City" by Gary Burns, a local filmmaker who wrote the memorable "Waydowntown." RC is about Calgary's urban sprawl problem, how the decentralized 'power centers' have failed in the suburbs, and how one typical Calgary family deals living in the maze of pseudo-conjoined houses in cookie-cutter format. It takes a sensical approach on Burn's part, but a cynical approach on the family in the story. Very interesting to watch.

Here's the trailer for Radiant City: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pFNdQDBy2rY

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Claeren

OMG, a high level source.... !? *shakes head*

UNFORTUNATELY it is partially true, that they are trying to get SOME business to decentralize from the primary core and move into other business nodes around the city.

Fortunately the biggest and most important business are staying downtown. Considering that EVERY great city in North America has a great downtown and that it is one of our primary advantages in the north american market we better hope it does not go too far either.


To be honest, most of the business setting up outside the core are being pushed out by higher rents and lack of space (or in other words competiton from the big money O&G companies) more so than they are willfully moving to the suburbs because of some plan to move them there.


It is a HORRIBLE plan though that only increases traffic congestion over the long term. Plus numerous studies have shown people working in office parks in the suburbs have lower morale than downtown office workers and as someone who does work in a 'node' office park (Southland Plaza) it is a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE place to work!! No chance to network, hard to meet up with people for lunch etc, hard to get to if one spouse works on one side of the city and the other spouse works on the other side of the city, no good restaurants or coffee shops, no good shopping, no good street energy, etc.

And shockingly the parking situation is not even that great!! Downtown you have say 200 spots for every 1000 workers BUT the other workers can easily take transit or carpool (even if it is with their spouse/gf-bf/etc) or ride a bike, etc. Versus at office nodes (where they COULD take transit across the city for HOURS on end - and no one does - in my office area of ~300 workers only 2 or 3 do) where there are 500 spots for every 1000 workers (great, right?) but 900 of them, at LEAST, HAVE to drive! It is actually a lesser situation!!


Sounds good on paper to some people i guess, but sucks ASS in reality.


Claeren.

Well, you don't even know my source, but whatever - and it's not even on the City of Calgary side.

But a few points in reponse to your post:

1) If you think businesses outside of the core is a problem, you should look at what's going on inside the core. With vacancy at a fraction of a single percentile, it's companies being squeezed out of the inner core with higher rents and lack of space. These new urban development zones aim to address exactly that; and, along major transportation routes, no less.

2) I'm not sure how expansion of the LRT system increases traffic congestion. More train cabs are bound to be purchased, and with new tracks, commuter capacity along major routes is increased. With major urban commercial / residential development planned around these routes, I fail to see how traffic congestion on a city-wide scale will increase. If anything, this type of development will decrease travel time. Plans include a plethora of different concepts for stores, offices, plazas, and other contributing property types.



The whole point of these 'nodes' are to provide a location closer to individual in order to reduce the traveling distance to and from work and play. The point is so that you can go to work without having to travel long distances into downtown. Besides seeing obvious environmental, economic and aesthetic benefits for most parties, I fail to see how this type of development hurts anyone. Unless you look forward to driving your gas-guzzling vehicle 25 km into and from downtown everyday five days a week?

If you want an example of the closest thing in Calgary to one of these 'nodes', look no further than Crowfoot Crossing. It's everything a node is supposed to be minus the office space. In essence, this city has not seen what a true 'node' or 'nuclear commercial centre' can actually do when properly invested in.

[Flaming Choy]

well, a lot of the engineering offices are down south now by like canyon meadows (Fluor, Colt), so I guess that's sorta like spreading out the office space.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Flaming Choy

well, a lot of the engineering offices are down south now by like canyon meadows (Fluor, Colt), so I guess that's sorta like spreading out the office space.

This is not unusual in any city. Bell is building their own campus as well.

And BTW, the so called family in Radiant City were actors and was filmed mostly outside of Toronto and parts in Mckenzie town. One of the best planned neighborhoods in Calgary.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Muta

1) If you think businesses outside of the core is a problem, you should look at what's going on inside the core. With vacancy at a fraction of a single percentile, it's companies being squeezed out of the inner core with higher rents and lack of space. These new urban development zones aim to address exactly that; and, along major transportation routes, no less.

2) I'm not sure how expansion of the LRT system increases traffic congestion. More train cabs are bound to be purchased, and with new tracks, commuter capacity along major routes is increased. With major urban commercial / residential development planned around these routes, I fail to see how traffic congestion on a city-wide scale will increase. If anything, this type of development will decrease travel time. Plans include a plethora of different concepts for stores, offices, plazas, and other contributing property types...

If you want an example of the closest thing in Calgary to one of these 'nodes', look no further than Crowfoot Crossing. It's everything a node is supposed to be minus the office space...

When I look at the core I see a central hub well served by our city's radial LRT system. Our mono-centric form complements our radial rail network because it concentrates the majority of the workforce in one area which is well served by a commuter rail type transit system; numerous points-to-one service.

When I look at Calgary as a polycentric city I see a planning disaster! Even if the new downtowns were TOD and prime examples of Urban Villages they wouldn't work. I think it's safe to say that in a polycentric Calgary at least half of the workforce would not work in the same quadrant as where they lived. As such, a lot of the traffic would be cross-town but since our transit system is radial it would be far easier for commuters to drive, which would lead to more congestion. Unless Calgary expands its rail network to conveniently serve point-to-point journeys the city should stick with its mono-centric form, but when does Sprawlgary ever making the correct planning choice...

I’m not sure Crowfoot Crossing is the best example; it’s pretty much an auto-oriented power centre. I’d say Calgary’s best node outside the downtown would be The Bridges, but surprise surprise it’s right next to the core…

[Five-hole]

How do I see Radiant City?

[Hack&Lube]

Man, do I ever despise Calgary's urban sprawl. It's just a small town that keeps going out...with a downtown core that goes dead quiet after 6PM when everybody drives home so it's a ghost town.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Muta

If you want an example of the closest thing in Calgary to one of these 'nodes', look no further than Crowfoot Crossing. It's everything a node is supposed to be minus the office space. In essence, this city has not seen what a true 'node' or 'nuclear commercial centre' can actually do when properly invested in.

Crowfoot is about the worst example of a node as humanly possible. It is a sprawling auto-oriented mess. The point is the create Transit-oriented nodes with high density and compact urban form within 500 or so metres of train stations. Recently the city sent out RFPs to planning firms to craft TOD plans for 6 stations around Calgary: Anderson, Canyon Meadows, Chinook, Lion's Park, Banff Trail, and Brentwood. Westgate is already being considered as part of the WLRT land use plan.

It is critical to maintain downtown as the primary employment area. It is nearly impossible to plan an efficient transit system with the workforce spread over the entire city in random locations. If companies can't locate downtown for cost reasons, their alternative should be transit-oriented developments.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Man, do I ever despise Calgary's urban sprawl. It's just a small town that keeps going out...with a downtown core that goes dead quiet after 6PM when everybody drives home so it's a ghost town.

Central Business Districts are always relatively dead after 6 pm, but that isn't all of downtown. Look at Toronto or New York. The financial district is dead after 6pm too, even in New York, arguably the greatest city on earth, lower manhattan financial district and many parts of midtown are dead in the evening too. That is the nature of these concentrated business areas.

Vitality happens on the periphery. In places like Toronto, that is Queen Street or Yonge Street, In Calgary, the Beltline including 17th is active day and night, Kensington - the same.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Addick

I’m not sure Crowfoot Crossing is the best example; it’s pretty much an auto-oriented power centre. I’d say Calgary’s best node outside the downtown would be The Bridges, but surprise surprise it’s right next to the core…

Bridges is the best example, but it is a neighbourhood, not really an employment node. But that is ok too.