Cheifs Threaten Train Blockades on June 29

[Bobblehead]

CN took out a full page ad in the National Post last week saying something to the effect, "Hey. We aren't the enemy. We agree with you. Don't stop our trains"

[Cowperson]

One can only wonder how long a blockade would last if the cheques suddenly stopped coming.

Cowperson

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I didn't imply that the natives were at fault for anything. I was blaming our tail between the legs government for letting them get away with such things. Heck I don't blame someone for going to the well again after many sucessful efforts. What I don't support is our government paying in excess of what they have already agreed to in actual official treaties. The taxpayers are worse off because excess money is continually spent and the natives themselves are worse off due to dependence on these expenditures. Don't get me started on the actual chiefs themselves. If you've ever been to Mexico at an all-inclusive resort during one of their 'meetings of chiefs' you'd understand that there's more than just money needed to help the situation of the common native.

So you have a problem with our government? Vote for a different government. You talk about how bad the chiefs are, they are no different to the leaders that we elect in. Paul Martin should be serving time in jail, he is probably vacationing on a beach though.

[guzzy]

The simple solution....don't stop the trains.

That will change some attitudes very quickly.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by guzzy

The simple solution....don't stop the trains.

That will change some attitudes very quickly.

I don't know if anyone really wants to touch that one . . . .

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

One can only wonder how long a blockade would last if the cheques suddenly stopped coming.

Cowperson

Quoted for truth

Thats exactly what I would do, as well as mobilize the troops to be ready for immediate action should something become violent or outside the control of the police.

[Cowperson]

You talk about how bad the chiefs are, they are no different to the leaders that we elect in.

I don't get the feeling from our elected Parliamentarians, whom I'm not defending, that we are being confined with no hope to an impoverished ghetto frozen in time by a system they rigidly defend and based on the colour of our skin so that they might personally profit from the narrow concentration of power.

Cowperson

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

You talk about how bad the chiefs are, they are no different to the leaders that we elect in.

I don't get the feeling from our elected Parliamentarians, whom I'm not defending, that we are being confined with no hope to an impoverished ghetto frozen in time by a system they rigidly defend and based on the colour of our skin so that they might personally profit from the narrow concentration of power.

Cowperson

When a band gets money the money usually goes to the chief, he then distributes the money to the families within the band. One of the reasons why some bands are worse off than other is because the chief doesn't divide the money equally or fairly. The chief might keep a good chunk for him and his family while the family down the road gets nothing. Sounds like our government to me.

And i don't think that Natives are confined with no hope in an impoverished ghetto, but i think that's a hell of a good job by our government and media to paint that picture.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

When a band gets money the money usually goes to the chief, he then distributes the money to the families within the band. One of the reasons why some bands are worse off than other is because the chief doesn't divide the money equally or fairly. The chief might keep a good chunk for him and his family while the family down the road gets nothing. Sounds like our government to me.

And i don't think that Natives are confined with no hope in an impoverished ghetto, but i think that's a hell of a good job by our government and media to paint that picture.

If that's the picture its because aboriginals have painted it themselves. . . . . and, if you read back through your comments, you're essentially agreeing with me while tacking on the opposite conclusion at the end.

And no, that doesn't sound like the government that leads one of the more multi-cultural, racially diverse nations in the world . . . . in spite of its innumerable flaws.

Which might lead us to another point . . . . why is it that a single racial minority in one of the wealthiest and more multi-cultural, racially diverse nations in the world is unable to integrate and take advantage of the opportunities available to the common man and instead chooses to confine itself to fixed ghettos?

That, my opponent, is merely stating a factual observation with a relevant question attached.

Cowperson

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

One can only wonder how long a blockade would last if the cheques suddenly stopped coming.

Cowperson

Exactly what I thought the first time this came up.

The treaty included them keeping the peace. Well, you broke the peace, you broke the treaty, kiss your special status goodbye.

[CaptainCrunch]

God help the natives if they block the trains and roads on a July long weekend, because the public backlash would be huge!

I understand thier grievances to some extent, but until they take some steps towards using the money for self determination, these reserves are going to continue to languish.

To me the conditional arguement is that the reservations and to some extent special status' time has kind of gone. Make one big pot of money for the land claims send out cheques as one time settlements, and shut down the reservations after compensation for the land values, again split evenly by the government.

You can live with the rest of Canada and not lose your cultural identity. If it wasn't possible we'd have special reserves for the chinese, the russians and other unique cultures.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Exactly what I thought the first time this came up.

The treaty included them keeping the peace. Well, you broke the peace, you broke the treaty, kiss your special status goodbye.

Their special status isn't enshrined in law as much as it is in practice. That little thing called the 'race card' still has unbelievable powers beyond that of any written document or standing army. Collectively as a people we enpower it, individually we loathe it's useage. Why is it called the 'race card'? Well according to wikipedia it means:

"an idiomatic phrase, referring to an allegation raised against a person who has unnecessarily brought the issue of race or racism into a debate so as to obfuscate the matter."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_Card

Until a government and a few judges in court grow the testicular fortitute to evaluate their issue on the surface and beyond what our ancestors did to their ancestors in times past we'll never get past this.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

If that's the picture its because aboriginals have painted it themselves. . . . . and, if you read back through your comments, you're essentially agreeing with me while tacking on the opposite conclusion at the end.

And no, that doesn't sound like the government that leads one of the more multi-cultural, racially diverse nations in the world . . . . in spite of its innumerable flaws.

Which might lead us to another point . . . . why is it that a single racial minority in one of the wealthiest and more multi-cultural, racially diverse nations in the world is unable to integrate and take advantage of the opportunities available to the common man and instead chooses to confine itself to fixed ghettos?

That, my opponent, is merely stating a factual observation with a relevant question attached.

Cowperson

I don't think that natives are treated as the common man as you suggest. Look how Tootoo was treated by fellow Canadians while playing junior hockey. I agree they can help themselves a bit more but i think the ghettos and the mindset that you are talking about is trickling down from generation to generation, bands that thrive continue to thrive and bands that don't continue not to.

Canada may be a racially diverse nation but i don't think they are helping themselves by the way they are doing things. I brought this up in another thread but it might be relevant here as well. Why do we see skilled imigrants come from other countries only to be told that the certificate that they hold does them no good? We are crying for doctors and trades people, why not set up a 3-6 month course to ensure that these people can transfer the education that they had in a different country to this country rather than having them wash floors in an office tower?

From my opinion, natives are looked down upon most in Canada in comparison to any other visible minority, that's brutal considering that they had this land prior to any whites. As harsh as it is to say, most people have natives classified as scum, when people portray them as such i can imagine it's brutal to be walking in their shoes.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

From my opinion, natives are looked down upon most in Canada in comparison to any other visible minority, that's brutal considering that they had this land prior to any whites. As harsh as it is to say, most people have natives classified as scum, when people portray them as such i can imagine it's brutal to be walking in their shoes.

That they had the land prior is irrelevant. We're here, we're not going away, and I will never endure a guilt trip for something "our people" did ten generations ago.

As for why natives are looked down upon: when was the last time you saw a sober native person in decent clothes on the c-train? People's perceptions are built by what they see, and what we don't see are a lot of native people who have integrated themselves into society.

The segregation maintained by natives themselves is their biggest enemy when it comes to how they are viewed by the rest of society. Race relations only improve when everyone has and makes positive contributions to eachother. Step off the reserve, step into society, and perceptions will change. It will take a long time, but they will change.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Canada may be a racially diverse nation but i don't think they are helping themselves by the way they are doing things. I brought this up in another thread but it might be relevant here as well. Why do we see skilled imigrants come from other countries only to be told that the certificate that they hold does them no good? We are crying for doctors and trades people, why not set up a 3-6 month course to ensure that these people can transfer the education that they had in a different country to this country rather than having them wash floors in an office tower?

Well, first of all- a native person can become a doctor in this country without having $100K in student loans like the rest of us.

Secondly, the lack of a 3 to 6 month course has little to do with racism and more to do with the training. One of my high school buddies is a doctor, and his father was a doctor back in his home country. My buddy admits that it would have taken 4 or 5 years of training to get his father up to the level that my friend is at.

Now, if we take some of the education money set aside for the natives and give it to doctors who don't meet Canadian medical standards; then you have a solution. A politically incorrect one; but still a solution.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

I don't think that natives are treated as the common man as you suggest. .

I didn't say aboriginals are "treated as the common man."

I said they confine themselves to ghetto's and simulaneously fail to step out and avail themselves of the opportunities available to the common man in one of the wealthiest, most ethnically and racially diverse nations in the world.

The notion that they are denied opportunity because of their skin colour is wearing thin . . . . and the example of successes from other people "who don't look right" is putting that excuse to lie.

And by the way, there are increasing examples of both bands and individuals attaining success . . . . but not enough.

Look how Tootoo was treated by fellow Canadians while playing junior hockey. I agree they can help themselves a bit more but i think the ghettos and the mindset that you are talking about is trickling down from generation to generation, bands that thrive continue to thrive and bands that don't continue not to.

But that's what we're talking about . . . . bands of people as opposed to individuals stepping out and doing something about their lives if they want to.

Congrats to Tootoo for setting an example for his peers.

(Also, sidebar, congrats to Tootoo for his hot, very white, southern belle girlfriend, former American Idol finalist Kellie Pickler.)

From my opinion, natives are looked down upon most in Canada in comparison to any other visible minority, that's brutal considering that they had this land prior to any whites.

Why is it brutal?

Are you saying there aren't white people you might look down upon or have a negative opinion of?

White people, black people, Russian immigrants, ancestors of Chinese rail workers, great, great, great grandchildren of black slaves, etc, etc, . . . . . probably don't look down on aboriginals because of the colour of their skin.

There's another reason. What is it?

As to the land thing, they're hardly the only people ever run over by invading hordes and integrated into the society of the winners. Canada is certainly a place where one can retain one's cultural identity as well. Look at me as an example, I'm still a WASP!!!

As harsh as it is to say, most people have natives classified as scum, when people portray them as such i can imagine it's brutal to be walking in their shoes

They certainly won't beat that stereotype living off the dole in ghettos . . . . nor will they beat it by blocking trains.

Like a lot of Canadians, I'm losing patience with the bills and the same old arguments. . . . .

Meanwhile, hate to dodge and run, but I've got a run on the prairie to get to . . . . back tomorrow.

Cowperson

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I didn't say aboriginals are "treated as the common man."

I said they confine themselves to ghetto's and simulaneously fail to step out and avail themselves of the opportunities available to the common man in one of the wealthiest, most ethnically and racially diverse nations in the world.

The notion that they are denied opportunity because of their skin colour is wearing thin . . . . and the example of successes from other people "who don't look right" is putting that excuse to lie.

And by the way, there are increasing examples of both bands and individuals attaining success . . . . but not enough.

Look how Tootoo was treated by fellow Canadians while playing junior hockey. I agree they can help themselves a bit more but i think the ghettos and the mindset that you are talking about is trickling down from generation to generation, bands that thrive continue to thrive and bands that don't continue not to.

But that's what we're talking about . . . . bands of people as opposed to individuals stepping out and doing something about their lives if they want to.

Congrats to Tootoo for setting an example for his peers.

(Also, sidebar, congrats to Tootoo for his hot, very white, southern belle girlfriend, former American Idol finalist Kellie Pickler.)

From my opinion, natives are looked down upon most in Canada in comparison to any other visible minority, that's brutal considering that they had this land prior to any whites.

Why is it brutal?

Are you saying there aren't white people you might look down upon or have a negative opinion of?

White people, black people, Russian immigrants, ancestors of Chinese rail workers, great, great, great grandchildren of black slaves, etc, etc, . . . . . probably don't look down on aboriginals because of the colour of their skin.

There's another reason. What is it?

As to the land thing, they're hardly the only people ever run over by invading hordes and integrated into the society of the winners. Canada is certainly a place where one can retain one's cultural identity as well. Look at me as an example, I'm still a WASP!!!

As harsh as it is to say, most people have natives classified as scum, when people portray them as such i can imagine it's brutal to be walking in their shoes

They certainly won't beat that stereotype living off the dole in ghettos . . . . nor will they beat it by blocking trains.

Like a lot of Canadians, I'm losing patience with the bills and the same old arguments. . . . .

Meanwhile, hate to dodge and run, but I've got a run on the prairie to get to . . . . back tomorrow.

Cowperson

If you look at how people talk when natives are brought up it's disgusting. You are saying they live in ghettos, saying that other immigrants look down upon them for what reason? Is it because they drink? In such a multi-cultural society i would think that the racism and stereotypes would be going down as well.

If you see a middle eastern man wondering around downtown do you automatically think that he is a terrorist? Have you only seen reserves that are run down? How do you explain the ongoing treatment of natives by the RCMP?


http://www.canada.com/cityguides/tor...c6ae39&k=55775

Alink talking about Amnesty International trying to assist Natives in Canada, interesting that a group like Amnesty International needs to ever be involved with an issue in Canada.

Have a look at Snakeeyes comment about the c-train, racism is alive and well in our glorious country.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Have a look at Snakeeyes comment about the c-train, racism is alive and well in our glorious country.

That isn't racism, that is pointing out a simple fact. If you want, I can relay my own experiences about Native Americans coming into my place of employment where I used to work (a grocery store) - this isn't some imaginary stereotype people throw around for no reason, people see this everyday on the street. If Natives want to change that perception, they better get with the program.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

That isn't racism, that is pointing out a simple fact. If you want, I can relay my own experiences about Native Americans coming into my place of employment where I used to work (a grocery store) - this isn't some imaginary stereotype people throw around for no reason, people see this everyday on the street. If Natives want to change that perception, they better get with the program.

How many sober natives did you see going into the grocery store? Were you looking? Were you just looking for the Natives that you thought were going to cause trouble?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

How many sober natives did you see going into the grocery store? Were you looking? Were you just looking for the Natives that you thought were going to cause trouble?

Don't assume I have some racist vendetta I want extract here, but I did see plenty of Sober Native Americans where I worked, but I also saw plenty of drunk ones. Usually a couple would come in each shift (I worked in the middle of the day usually, and apparently it was much worse at night), it was very rare to see another member of any other race piss drunk in the middle of the day, in fact, I could probably count the number on 2 hands in my 2 years of working there.

Was I looking for Native Americans to pick out? Of course not, I had a job to do, and you tend to notice the customers which stand out like a sore thumb from their behavior.

We had to actually call the cops multiple times to get natives out of the store for a multitude of reasons - never anyone from another race - including one guy who was threating to beat his wife in the middle of our store with a freaking golf club. Do you think I racially profiled him before I called the cops?