[Signing] Flames sign Huberdeau to long term extension (8 yrs, $10.5 mil AAV)

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I get the cynicism when it comes to Treliving, after all he was the GM.and at the end of the day the results were ‘meh’. 2 second round loses.

But, and I’ve said this all along, the decision to stay competitive and dole out $183M in contract extensions/UFA signings to Huberdeau/Weegar/Kadri was an organizational decision. No way Treliving acted rouge on this. If anything the direction to do so was given to him from above.

Edwards/Bean//Maloney all deserve equal the amount of criticism and derision that Treliving gets here. This is also why I have a wait and see approach on Conroy and the team he is able to mold. As I said yesterday, I think Conroy has three years to ‘rebuild’. Once the new arena is occupied, the foot will be firmly on the gas pedal. If Conroy is to build a team that has its core in place for the next 10 years or so, fantastic. If not, expect to see many of the same picks for players and questionable UFA signings, in the same mold as Treliving/Feaster/Sutter.

If Murray gives the direction like many allege he has clearly ordered Conroy to rebuild now so the guy is clearly flexible. Doubt that Murray ever ordered Treliving to sell off picks or be in constant go for it mode. My suspicion is that he is pretty hands off and the only decision he ever imposed was the hiring of Sutter.

If Murray was a constant “have to go for it guy” one would think he would have told Conroy to go for it last year coming off a season where they finished 2 points out. But somehow he found the intestinal fortitude to allow a rebuild to start months after missing the playoffs by 2 points.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If Murray gives the direction like many allege he has clearly ordered Conroy to rebuild now so the guy is clearly flexible. Doubt that Murray ever ordered Treliving to sell off picks or be in constant go for it mode. My suspicion is that he is pretty hands off and the only decision he ever imposed was the hiring of Sutter.

If Murray was a constant “have to go for it guy” one would think he would have told Conroy to go for it last year coming off a season where they finished 2 points out. But somehow he found the intestinal fortitude to allow a rebuild to start months after missing the playoffs by 2 points.

The Flames did apparently try to throw ridiculous money at Lindholm. There was clearly pressure there to compete.

IMO Conroy tricked the owners into a rebuild by selling them on the no old boys club/country club mantra. That meant that he could move several vets and the dominos fell from there.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If Murray gives the direction like many allege he has clearly ordered Conroy to rebuild now so the guy is clearly flexible. Doubt that Murray ever ordered Treliving to sell off picks or be in constant go for it mode. My suspicion is that he is pretty hands off and the only decision he ever imposed was the hiring of Sutter.

If Murray was a constant “have to go for it guy” one would think he would have told Conroy to go for it last year coming off a season where they finished 2 points out. But somehow he found the intestinal fortitude to allow a rebuild to start months after missing the playoffs by 2 points.

Murry seems to get blamed for a lot of things. The GM still has to sell the ideas to the owner and they both agree to sign off on them. I can't see it being one way street where the owner and group makes most of the decisions. Conroy probably had to sit down and sell the idea of how he was going to move forward with the re-tool, rebuild, I think with the rebuild, if the fans are still in the stands there may be more flexibility at the end of seasons 3. The key here is drafting and bringing in elite quality players that want to be here, the response from the fans seems to be quite positive. I think we're going to see a different approach and the Flames are going to build more within rather than look externally unless it's a proven player. My guess is that Conroy is going to be a better evaluator of a players talent and ability before brought in. Huberdeau situation is a good lesson for the Flames to look at ways to get it right.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If Murray gives the direction like many allege he has clearly ordered Conroy to rebuild now so the guy is clearly flexible. Doubt that Murray ever ordered Treliving to sell off picks or be in constant go for it mode. My suspicion is that he is pretty hands off and the only decision he ever imposed was the hiring of Sutter.

If Murray was a constant “have to go for it guy” one would think he would have told Conroy to go for it last year coming off a season where they finished 2 points out. But somehow he found the intestinal fortitude to allow a rebuild to start months after missing the playoffs by 2 points.

Boomer has talked about it on his morning show previously. His exact words were ‘there’s always pressure to win’. I don’t think Edwards is all that flexible. He pulled chute on an arena deal over sidewalks and solar panels, which is something the City asks for on every single development permit application for commercial buildings.

I think it’s pretty clear Edwards has a strong hand.

[Saqe]

Conroy's masterplan has been to repeat the mantra "this isn't a rebuild". Even though he has sold pretty much everyone he could lol. Repeat something long enough and people will believe it

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Boomer has talked about it on his morning show previously. His exact words were ‘there’s always pressure to win’. I don’t think Edwards is all that flexible. He pulled chute on an arena deal over sidewalks and solar panels, which is something the City asks for on every single development permit application for commercial buildings.

I think it’s pretty clear Edwards has a strong hand.

I think him grifting money from the city is totally different from whether a GM has free hand to do what they want from a hockey perspective. I have seen very little evidence that he is telling Conroy what to do. Conroy offered Lindholm and Hanifin market value and they turned it down, he traded Toffoli for a young player and. A pick and he never really offered Tanev or Zadorov anything. He pretty clearly came in with a plan to sell off multiple older pieces and the ownership said “great, sounds like a great plan”.

if Murray is always forcing the win now option the Flames had lots of options this offseason to do that, they are leaving 20+ million on the table. Conroy, just like Treliving, seem to have freedom to implement their visions to make the Flames Stanley Cup champions. Almost from day one it has been clear Conroy is doing a rebuild, at least in my eyes. Presumably a strong handed owner would have to sign off on that.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I think him grifting money from the city is totally different from whether a GM has free hand to do what they want from a hockey perspective. I have seen very little evidence that he is telling Conroy what to do. Conroy offered Lindholm and Hanifin market value and they turned it down, he traded Toffoli for a young player and. A pick and he never really offered Tanev or Zadorov anything. He pretty clearly came in with a plan to sell off multiple older pieces and the ownership said “great, sounds like a great plan”.

if Murray is always forcing the win now option the Flames had lots of options this offseason to do that, they are leaving 20+ million on the table. Conroy, just like Treliving, seem to have freedom to implement their visions to make the Flames Stanley Cup champions. Almost from day one it has been clear Conroy is doing a rebuild, at least in my eyes. Presumably a strong handed owner would have to sign off on that.

Really? Who hired Daryl Sutter? The majority of this board will tell you it was Edwards. Treliving was too much of a buffoon, apparently.

I wouldn’t conflate what the Flames had done for the previous 10 years to what they’ve currently doing. Circumstances change. A number of players have forced their way out, their choice, not the Flames. As is the cycle in any NA spots team, there are down swings. The Flames are in one and Edwards almost certainly recognizes this. He’s not obtuse. That said, I bet Conroy has about 3 years to get this team into playoff contention. That might seem like a long time but Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, Columbus might tell you otherwise.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I don't buy the notion that it is all on Edwards. Do people really believe he is that dumb to force something that isn't working, rather than relying on the people whom he hires to be experts advise him with what to do?


The mandate will always be "Win a Cup". That's the goal. It doesn't mean that this is the goal for every season. If I am Edwards, and I am hiring a GM, my question to every applicant will be: "How do you plan on winning the cup for this organization?"


Take a look at Feaster's tenure. He took over from Sutter, but NOT to rebuild. People actually forgot that Feaster decided to contend, rather than rebuild. Heck, remember the (thankfully) failed bid to sign UFA Brad Richards? He obviously go the sign-off to make those moves as he convinced Edwards that it was the right move going forward. When it all blew up in his face, then he did a 180, and of course he got the approval to enter into a rebuild.


If this doesn't show you that the ownership group - including Edwards - is willing to listen and abide by what the GMs are wanting to do, then I don't know what is. All this talk about "It was Edwards pulling the strings on the puppet Treliving" needs to go away.



Heck, people were screaming blue in the face at every poster who was saying that the Flames are entering a rebuild, adamant that there was NO WAY IN HELL that the Flames are going to rebuild. What the heck is this now?


I am actually SLIGHTLY surprised that the Flames are rebuilding. it is difficult to rebuild sometimes given the fact that some of the owners are fairly old. Lots of these billionaires owning teams are fairly old around the league. It sucks entering a 3-5-8 year rebuild as an owner when you are in your 80s. Will you get to see the completion of it, and win a cup? I can definitely understand the apprehension of it when seen through that light.


However, Flames are in a rebuild, and we have seen firsthand how ownership is willing to support "go for it" as well as "rebuild". This is the 2nd rebuild in 10 years. The first one failed MISERABLY, as the Flames never got anywhere near competing (2 total wins in 2 second round playoff appearances is not competing, sorry).


The GMs of Calgary probably do have a lot of freedom in what they want to do, as long as their plan seems sound. Treliving's buyouts and bad deals on trying to win now coupled with Feaster's attempted bad deal and then rebuild, and now with Conroy's rebuild - enough with the "Owners won't support..." crap.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Boomer has talked about it on his morning show previously. His exact words were ‘there’s always pressure to win’. I don’t think Edwards is all that flexible. He pulled chute on an arena deal over sidewalks and solar panels, which is something the City asks for on every single development permit application for commercial buildings.

I think it’s pretty clear Edwards has a strong hand.

He pulled the chute because he could The sidewalks and solar panels was just the excuse he used.

He wanted a better deal and got it.

It was just sound business.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

He pulled the chute because he could The sidewalks and solar panels was just the excuse he used.

He wanted a better deal and got it.

It was just sound business.

Right, no argument here on that side of the business.

The point I’m making is Edwards controls the overall business and direction, including hockey ops. He decides and knows what profitability looks like for this organization. We’ve seen for years this team push its chips in to stay competitive and make the playoffs for as long as they can. Inevitability, you do need to take a step backwards and rebuild. That said, I doubt very much Edwards is overly patient. If/when there’s a sign this team is ready or close to a playoff spot, I think they won’t be shy about being aggressive. I doubt very much we will see what’s going on in Detroit or Montreal.

Don’t need to look too far back. Once the Flames had Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Brodie, Gio, taking another year or two to continue rebuilding was no longer an option.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I don't buy the notion that it is all on Edwards. Do people really believe he is that dumb to force something that isn't working, rather than relying on the people whom he hires to be experts advise him with what to do?


The mandate will always be "Win a Cup". That's the goal. It doesn't mean that this is the goal for every season. If I am Edwards, and I am hiring a GM, my question to every applicant will be: "How do you plan on winning the cup for this organization?"


Take a look at Feaster's tenure. He took over from Sutter, but NOT to rebuild. People actually forgot that Feaster decided to contend, rather than rebuild. Heck, remember the (thankfully) failed bid to sign UFA Brad Richards? He obviously go the sign-off to make those moves as he convinced Edwards that it was the right move going forward. When it all blew up in his face, then he did a 180, and of course he got the approval to enter into a rebuild.


If this doesn't show you that the ownership group - including Edwards - is willing to listen and abide by what the GMs are wanting to do, then I don't know what is. All this talk about "It was Edwards pulling the strings on the puppet Treliving" needs to go away.



Heck, people were screaming blue in the face at every poster who was saying that the Flames are entering a rebuild, adamant that there was NO WAY IN HELL that the Flames are going to rebuild. What the heck is this now?


I am actually SLIGHTLY surprised that the Flames are rebuilding. it is difficult to rebuild sometimes given the fact that some of the owners are fairly old. Lots of these billionaires owning teams are fairly old around the league. It sucks entering a 3-5-8 year rebuild as an owner when you are in your 80s. Will you get to see the completion of it, and win a cup? I can definitely understand the apprehension of it when seen through that light.


However, Flames are in a rebuild, and we have seen firsthand how ownership is willing to support "go for it" as well as "rebuild". This is the 2nd rebuild in 10 years. The first one failed MISERABLY, as the Flames never got anywhere near competing (2 total wins in 2 second round playoff appearances is not competing, sorry).


The GMs of Calgary probably do have a lot of freedom in what they want to do, as long as their plan seems sound. Treliving's buyouts and bad deals on trying to win now coupled with Feaster's attempted bad deal and then rebuild, and now with Conroy's rebuild - enough with the "Owners won't support..." crap.

I don’t think it was Feaster’s call to rebuild. Jarome Iginla leaving forced the rebuild. That was Jarome’s decision, not Feaster, not Edwards.

I point to his hiring of Brian Burke. Burke was infamous for stating at the beginning of his Leafs tenure that he was not a patient man and ‘rebuild? My ass’ (I believe were his words). If there was a rebuild it was going to be a short as possible. I suspect it will be similar this time around too.

Think about it. If you were a GM, why wouldn’t you want to take 5,6,7 years to rebuild? Doesn’t work that way.

If you’re Steve Yzerman in Detroit, maybe you have that leeway but even he admitted recently that the pressure is starting to mount.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Right, no argument here on that side of the business.

The point I’m making is Edwards controls the overall business and direction, including hockey ops. He decides and knows what profitability looks like for this organization. We’ve seen for years this team push its chips in to stay competitive and make the playoffs for as long as they can. Inevitability, you do need to take a step backwards and rebuild. That said, I doubt very much Edwards is overly patient. If/when there’s a sign this team is ready or close to a playoff spot, I think they won’t be shy about being aggressive. I doubt very much we will see what’s going on in Detroit or Montreal.

Don’t need to look too far back. Once the Flames had Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Brodie, Gio, taking another year or two to continue rebuilding was no longer an option.

Part of that was coaching and some of the players brought in didn't do the job, which also created cap issues. The Troy, Neal and Lucic additions were the result of poor player evaluation. Was it the couching input, the scouts the GM or Murry?

I don't see how Murry is part of the player evaluation side of it. He must have gotten some input from the guys running the ship.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I don’t think it was Feaster’s call to rebuild. Jarome Iginla leaving forced the rebuild. That was Jarome’s decision, not Feaster, not Edwards.

I point to his hiring of Brian Burke. Burke was infamous for stating at the beginning of his Leafs tenure that he was not a patient man and ‘rebuild? My ass’ (I believe were his words). If there was a rebuild it was going to be a short as possible. I suspect it will be similar this time around too.

Think about it. If you were a GM, why wouldn’t you want to take 5,6,7 years to rebuild? Doesn’t work that way.

If you’re Steve Yzerman in Detroit, maybe you have that leeway but even he admitted recently that the pressure is starting to mount.

I think many of us hear have always said that Calgary ownership will never agree to a rebuild until it is forced upon them. Like his time. They really had no choice.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I think many of us hear have always said that Calgary ownership will never agree to a rebuild until it is forced upon them. Like his time. They really had no choice.

Exactly.

And to be clear, I don’t think the Flames are alone in this approach. I wish they would exercise some more patience but, based on what we’ve seen before, im skeptical. I think once the arena is open whether it is with what they have at the time (solid young core, hopefully), trading picks for players, or UFA signings they will push hard for the playoffs.

[dino7c]

Flames aren't really forced into a rebuild...they have the most cap space in the NHL. They could have kept Markstom and met Lindholm/Zadorov's demands and threw out some stupid contract offers.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Flames aren't really forced into a rebuild...they have the most cap space in the NHL. They could have kept Markstom and met Lindholm/Zadorov's demands and threw out some stupid contract offers.

Had the Flames done what you’re suggesting the essentially would have neutered themselves.

It was painfully obvious what direction they needed to go in to get better.

[Jason14h]

No teams ever enter a rebuild without some part being “forced”

Maybe the Miami Marlins !

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Had the Flames done what you’re suggesting the essentially would have neutered themselves.

It was painfully obvious what direction they needed to go in to get better.

teams do it all the time, there are 10+ teams doing it right now...that is the whole point of the argument

They were pointed in that direction but not forced, they could have gone another way. AT LEAST a third of the league has no shot at the cup this season and will be worse the following year.

[Kipper_3434]

Maybe Edward's isn't as dumb as people seem to assume. He's probably capable of doing a simple cost/benefit analysis of what a rebuild looks like. He probably was/is aware of team's talent level, top prospects and general situation. He is probably also capable of changing the team's directive based on its situation. The guy is smart enough to know the team needs some new superstars. All evidence shows that the team is tanking to get those superstars. I for one am happy to have an owner who will spend to the cap once it's time to win.

[DazzlinDino]

There has to be a solid foundation, I just don't see the Flames running in and making the same mistakes. I think Conroy has a foresight to avoid some of the mistakes that Treliving made. Just because we've seen a pattern in the past, that is not a good enough excuse to imply that we're going to make the same mistakes again. If Conroy needs another year, and he's done a good job up to that point, I don't see why they wouldn't put themselves in a better position to strengthen the core. I get the sense that the Flames are going to do better, than they did under Treliving. Conroy has talked about doing things differently which implies that he saw some shortcoming. He indicated that he wants everyone working as a team and making decisions together. He's talked about talking directly with our young players, and following up with them, and challenging them to raise the bar as a requirement if they want to make the team. Conroy has ept his word, sending young the players who didn't show enough and keeping the players that took it to the next level. This shows he has faith in these young players, he's even stepped in and directed the coach when Yegor Sharangovich moved down in the lineup.

So far Conroy seems to have a better handle on what the team needs and how to work with the young players. There is a reason why he wants young players given an opportunity. Conroy has been around long enough to see the mistakes within the Flames organization.

I'm not convinced Conroy is going to make the same mistakes, or that Murry going to force him to make those the same mistakes. Conroy might just turn out to be a better GM.