Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[KelVarnsen]

Will we even survive next couple of years before the election?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

Will we even survive next couple of years before the election?

God I hope not.

After the last few years if an asteroid was heading for Earth just let Bruce Willis stay home and we just call it.

We've had a decent run.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

No, send Bruce up there, the plan from that movie would have made the whole thing far more destructive.

[puffnstuff]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

In their defence it’s probably(hopefully) coming from party funds. But if it’s not…

Why would they spend their (ucp) money when they have ours?
Im sure the money came from the taxpayer funded Defend Alberta Ministry.

[MBates]

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...-with-province

The disruption to the justice system and the apparent abandonment of decency and basic fairness that this development represents is difficult to convey.

"Notice" given by the Minister on June 27th with a deadline of July 1 that the previous entire history of the Legal Aid program in Alberta will now go in a completely different and fundamentally altered direction...because the Minister has unilaterally decided that would be for the best.

It may sound dramatic, but the justice system will not be able to function if Legal Aid Alberta ceases issuing certificates without a fully functional replacement (which of course does not exist).

Objectively this is exceedingly bad governance. There was peace on this front...and out of nowhere a unilateral decision to drop a nuclear bomb into the middle of a system that was functioning reasonably well.

I would say it is unbelievable, but unfortunately it is not.

[Roughneck]

I would hazard a guess that there’s a donor or other connected party member with an organization more than willing (but not necessarily able) to fill the role, albeit for a small fee increase to cover the service gaps on such short notice.

[Reggie Dunlop]

Unfortunately, the concept of Due Process under the law is in danger of being abandoned.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by MBates

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...-with-province

The disruption to the justice system and the apparent abandonment of decency and basic fairness that this development represents is difficult to convey.

"Notice" given by the Minister on June 27th with a deadline of July 1 that the previous entire history of the Legal Aid program in Alberta will now go in a completely different and fundamentally altered direction...because the Minister has unilaterally decided that would be for the best.

It may sound dramatic, but the justice system will not be able to function if Legal Aid Alberta ceases issuing certificates without a fully functional replacement (which of course does not exist).

Objectively this is exceedingly bad governance. There was peace on this front...and out of nowhere a unilateral decision to drop a nuclear bomb into the middle of a system that was functioning reasonably well.

I would say it is unbelievable, but unfortunately it is not.

So what happens if one cannot afford a lawyer and no legal aide exists? What does a judge do? Don’t people have the right to a defence attorney as protected under the Charter?

Counterpoint…… you won’t like it… but, hmmm maybe, just maybe, lawyers are too damn expensive?!? Bit tongue in cheek, but seriously- what stops legal aide from just demanding a wildly massive fee disconnected from reality? Government just has to pay it?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by MBates

The disruption to the justice system and the apparent abandonment of decency and basic fairness that this development represents is difficult to convey.

Does this mean that the people who are currently covered by legal aid are basically going to be in the same situation as the people who need but can’t afford a lawyer for labour related legal matters which legal aid is not provided for are in?

If so, that’s bad. Even if it comes with a free frogurt.

[Canadianman]

Originally Posted by MBates

https://edmontonjournal.com/news/pol...-with-province

The disruption to the justice system and the apparent abandonment of decency and basic fairness that this development represents is difficult to convey.

"Notice" given by the Minister on June 27th with a deadline of July 1 that the previous entire history of the Legal Aid program in Alberta will now go in a completely different and fundamentally altered direction...because the Minister has unilaterally decided that would be for the best.

It may sound dramatic, but the justice system will not be able to function if Legal Aid Alberta ceases issuing certificates without a fully functional replacement (which of course does not exist).

Objectively this is exceedingly bad governance. There was peace on this front...and out of nowhere a unilateral decision to drop a nuclear bomb into the middle of a system that was functioning reasonably well.

I would say it is unbelievable, but unfortunately it is not.

100% agree. An absolutely boneheaded move that has no purpose other than to undermine the legal system.

Just like they have done to health care and education and a bunch of other fundamental government programs in the past year or two.

This isn't a Conservative government. It's a gang hell-bent on pillaging our Province.

[GullFoss]

Smith and Nenshi are both great choices. But I'm pretty happy with the job Smith is doing, so wouldn't want to change.

The big move Smith is going to pull vs Spendshi is income tax cuts. That will make the decision very clear. Lower taxes or more services. I prefer lower taxes myself, but realize some feel differently (most so those working in the government)

[Looch City]

That's bait right?

[Fuzz]

Yes, I'm currently basking in Smith's promised immediate tax cut that's totally coming 6 months before the next election. It's been great! Would vote Smith again! Now dammit, where'd I put put that jar of paste down again?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Smith and Nenshi are both great choices. But I'm pretty happy with the job Smith is doing, so wouldn't want to change.

The big move Smith is going to pull vs Spendshi is income tax cuts. That will make the decision very clear. Lower taxes or more services. I prefer lower taxes myself, but realize some feel differently (most so those working in the government)

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Smith and Nenshi are both great choices. But I'm pretty happy with the job Smith is doing, so wouldn't want to change.

The big move Smith is going to pull vs Spendshi is income tax cuts. That will make the decision very clear. Lower taxes or more services. I prefer lower taxes myself, but realize some feel differently (most so those working in the government)

I'm so confused.

[Johnny Makarov]

Someone drank too much water from Gull Lake.

[Regorium]

I mean Nenshi can do the same thing and promise an infinite % tax cut and then not do it once they get into power right? Seems to work.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

So what happens if one cannot afford a lawyer and no legal aide exists? What does a judge do? Don’t people have the right to a defence attorney as protected under the Charter?

Counterpoint…… you won’t like it… but, hmmm maybe, just maybe, lawyers are too damn expensive?!? Bit tongue in cheek, but seriously- what stops legal aide from just demanding a wildly massive fee disconnected from reality? Government just has to pay it?

I disagree with your assertion that I "won't like it" responding to a tired and uninformed shot at the mythical evil legal aid lawyers getting unreasonably wealthy (by offering their services to help disadvantaged people for a fraction of what they could offer the same services on the open market). I am happy to help correct misinformation about the justice system and the legal profession. I like to think it is kind of what I do by posting here.

Technically speaking the government is not obligated to provide any particular legal aid program (it is one of the few places where public money spent returns multiples back in return on investment though...so having a sophisticated arms-length program is invaluable to the justice system remaining functional).

What the government is obligated to do in many criminal and other cases where liberty and security of the person interests are at stake is to provide state-funded legal counsel.

So, if the government dismantles a reasonably well-running legal aid program they will still be on the hook for paying for most of the same legal services, but now a highly inefficient and resource intensive case by case litigation process (using actual court time and government lawyers who would otherwise be doing other work) will replace the current administrative out of court legal aid process.

It will cost the taxpayer far more more in direct legal fees, unnecessarily waste vast amounts of court time, delay all civil and family matters while criminal matters draw an even more inordinate share of the available resources, and cause many criminal lawyers' businesses to suffer (and encourage them to leave the practice area and potentially the province - though that very last part is hard to assess how significant of a risk that is).

All for no apparent reason.

As to the comment about legal aid being able to somehow just charge whatever it wants to the government for legal fees, that is just not how anything works.

There are financial eligibility guidelines that severely limit how many people can qualify for legal aid, a set tariff of fees that can be charged by lawyers which is all subject to review and audit, and after the massive raise that took job action to get, the notional hourly rate that is allowed to be charged (where the tariff even allows hourly billing which is almost never) is $125. Keep in mind of course, from that $125 per hour a lawyer must pay all of the costs of running a highly regulated and costly to operate small business. In many circumstances, once all of the unpaid work is factored in, a lawyer working on a legal aid certificate will fail to make minimum wage.

So to be clear, Legal Aid Alberta is an arms length administrator of the government program. The government funds legal aid (up until now through an orderly Governance Agreement that sets out rights and responsibilities of the parties) and then Legal Aid Alberta takes care of all the intake, eligibility assessments, issuing coverage certificates, maintaining a mix of staff counsel and a roster of private lawyers willing to actually do the work to help the clients who qualify etc, and reports back to the Minister and is subject to the oversight of the Auditor General.

There was absolutely no missing oversight power that the government suddenly needed to secure to protect the taxpayer. The Minister already had it...but subject to basic aspects of fairness including the independence of Legal Aid Alberta to make decisions free from being dictated by the Minister (who of course is the party litigating one side of criminal and most other cases where liberty and security of the person interests are at issue).

It remains to be seen where this impasse goes, but the volume of legal cases that are very efficiently processed through the system every day by lawyers being organized through Legal Aid Alberta is staggering. The system simply cannot function if that flow is stopped.

[Mr.Coffee]

Thanks! Always amazing info from you and more or less answered my question/ devils advocate point. Couple follow ups;

What do you see the logical outcome of this is then? Basically, if a person is charged with a crime and legal aide no longer exists, I (think) what you’re saying is that the court still has to somehow arrange for a defense attorney if a defendant cannot afford one (is this right?) and, if so, is that the responsibility of the judge / court clerks or the defendant to demonstrate they can’t afford a lawyer to the judge instead of this other independent body that administered all of that?

Doesn’t a crime need to be prosecuted / heard within a set timeframe? Do you see risk then that this could delay court proceedings to an extent that crimes may not even be able to be heard because they lapse beyond that timeframe and then no day in court is even had and the charged simply just goes free?

[Weitz]

I’m surprised they didn’t get a bump based on the overwhelming victory by Nenshi.

The Abacus Data survey of 1,000 Albertans aged 18 and over, conducted days after Nenshi's leadership win on June 22, found results consistent with the last survey the polling firm released in March.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...data-1.7253024