Sicko

[ericschand]

Don't know if there is another thread for this documentary.

The movie is all over the internet, it was "leaked" out. It's on youtube,
bittorrent, what-have-you.

[minor spoilers, if you consider spoiling a documentary]

The movie is very eye-opening. Even with family living in the USA,
I didn't realize how screwed up things are. Even when they have
insurance, they seemed to be screwed. He makes it very clear,
right at the beginning, he is not talking about the 50 million people
who do not have insurance, this movie is about those who do.

He opens by showing the difference between the systems in Canada
and the USA. One Canadian loses two fingers in a sawing accident.
He goes into the hospital and has his fingers put back on, etc. Total
cost is zero.

An American does something similar. He has health insurance. He
goes in, and then given a choice. He still has to pay, $12,000 for the
pointing finger or $60,000 for the middle finger. He actually has to
choose $12,000 to spend and lose the other finger!

How bizzare is that?

He shows how insurance companies always try to get out of paying
for healthcare. He shows how a yeast infection denies insurance
payments to people.

The movie continues to show the British and French systems as well.
There are a couple of things from those systems that I think would be
very good here. For example, in the UK, if a doctor helps someone to
quit smoking, lose weight (ie. live healthier), he gets bonus pay. Wow,
there's preventative medicine right there, would be good to see in
Canada.

The French go way overboard, IMO. To have someone come to
your house for six months after you have a baby, to do laundry,
cooking, cleaning, that's just way over the top. However, their
24x7 emergency doctors (similar to an ambulance, but a doctor
that makes house calls) are an intriguing idea.

The last portion of the movie deals with Cuba and the 9-11 emergency
personnel. This is the portion that's got him in trouble in the USA.
It's obvious why the government doesn't want this movie to be seen,
and why they would go to such lengths to try to censor it, once you
watch it. It does not in any way make the US system of healthcare
seem good, nor does it potray any part of business or government
in a "healthy" light.

The movie, watched with my Dad on Father's Day, had an effect on
my Dad. He works in the USA, and was going to retire there. Now
he's contemplating moving back to Canada when he retires.

Once again, I expect him to come under severe attack for this movie.
However, I just don't see how anyone can refute anything he documents.

My rating, 5/5, must watch for everyone, Canadian, American, British,
French, et al.

ers

[Kipru]

It seems like a longer version of a bit he did to "The Awful Truth"-program. I wouldn't pay for getting the information i already know: USA is lead by idiots. French are sissies. And Canadians are suprisingly sensible. Probably due to the great amount of immigrants from Finland and Norway .

[Slava]

Sounds interesting to me and I will definitely watch it. I know that this is slanted from the start; and even Moore doesn't seem to deny it in the latest issue of Macleans.

I actually like the French system...of course there are questions of whether this is really necessary, but honestly taking $$ out of the equation I think that we would all agree this would be a great improvement!

[llama64]

It's too bad Moore made a bad name for himself with his blatent attack on the Bush presidential campaign last time. I think he really hurt his credibility making important messages like the one espoused by Sicko lose a large chunk of it's audience.

I'm still going to wait till it comes out on a legal medium before I watch it.

In France and England, what are the personal taxes like? How do they afford their medical systems?

[Frank the Tank]

This has been all over the news here as a bunch of it was filmed in London. The guy that has his fingers chopped off and re-attched is a Londoner. Plus, Moore held the north American premeire here. The one thing I hear the most is that he over-glorify's the Canadian system. It is far from the picture of perfection he portrays.

[ericschand]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

The one thing I hear the most is that he over-glorify's the Canadian system. It is far from the picture of perfection he portrays.

I don't think that was his point, to portray everyone else as perfect.
His point is, if most of the Western World can have basic coverage for
everyone, why can't the richest country in the world do better? Even
Cuba manages to do better (although it must have been a setup by
the Cuban govt. There's no way it's that good....is it?)

One answer, which I believe is spoken about in the movie, that I felt
was the honest one was, in many countries it's a feeling of community,
everyone pays, everyone gets taken care of. In the USA, there is
no sense of community in that regard, an every-man-for-himself
approach if you want. [The French are willing to riot over it, and do,
as he points out. Would you get that in the USA? How about Canada?
Alberta?]

ers

[Slava]

Well in Alberta we just believe that we can't afford to keep what we have, let alone to do better. To me this whole thing comes down to priorities though...we will spend money on ways to kill and maim people (national defence), but refuse to acknowledge that the same amount of good could be done by looking for ways to help and heal people.

[Resolute 14]

And here I thought this was going to be about Fotze's latest antics...

[Vulcan]

The way I understand it, in the States it isn't as simple to find support for national health care because health care is big business and the politicians rely on their money for campaigne sp. contributions. Also these health care companies do a lot of advertising, so the common person isn't aware of a better alternative. This is another case of the tail wagging the dog and the U S can't seem to get it done. Hopefully this movie helps get it done. Isn't this one of Hillary's pet projects?

[FireFly]

Back in university, part of a course I took was based on our healthcare systems. One of the things that shocked me is that what sometimes happens, is if your employer is the one who is paying for your insurance and you get sick, you'll often get terminated. Sometimes they'll terminate you prior to paying your health care, and sometimes, if they're forced to, they'll pay for your care and then find a reason to terminate you afterwards so that their premiums don't go up. It's a sick system, and I cannot believe that anyone would want to emulate it.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by llama64

It's too bad Moore made a bad name for himself with his blatent attack on the Bush presidential campaign last time. I think he really hurt his credibility making important messages like the one espoused by Sicko lose a large chunk of it's audience.

I'm still going to wait till it comes out on a legal medium before I watch it.

In France and England, what are the personal taxes like? How do they afford their medical systems?

The Health Care system in England is collapsing under it's own weight. The cost of running the system is increasing at an exponential rate and there is very little the NHS can do about it other than slash jobs and slash services (sound familiar). When I was there last Summer there was a big thing where they were trying to rid themselves of some of the administration associated with the health care system. Their system is far from perfect as well.

[CaptainCrunch]

The concept of universal health care is a good one.

The way that Canada executes that concept is flawed, there's throwing money at a problem to make it go away, and then there's throwing money at a problem to make it go away, but not having the sense to be the least bit strategic about the spending.

Canada's health care system dosen't work because we overspend on the administration of it, and to keep the unions happy, and we don't spend enough on actual beds and equipment, and research. The fact that there are not enough MRI's in the system for example is a huge concern. The fact that we're losing doctors and can't get doctors who want to service rural areas is a huge problem.

Right now Health care is a sinkhole for dollars, I was hoping that the Conservative government would look at ways of improving it, but the guaranteed wait time strategy is a lip service and nothing more.

[AaronSJ]

Originally Posted by ericschand

Even Cuba manages to do better (although it must have been a setup by the Cuban govt. There's no way it's that good....is it?)

I've been to Cuban hospitals and clinics -- it's not "that good", as their biggest problem is a chronic shortage of supplies... they simply do without many basic items (drugs, bandages, dressings, etc.). It's quite common to see gardens outside of hospitals/clinics where they actually grow their own "medicines". The one area in which they are far superior to us is the number of trained doctors -- socialist education means a steady supply of well-trained medical professionals. So Canadian issues like "access" and "wait-times" aren't a problem in Cuba...

There are actually of a couple of "international hospitals" in Cuba -- and I suspect this is where Moore filmed his clips in Cuba. These hospitals are well-stocked and cater to foreigners (travellers, rich visitors from other Central/South American countries, etc.). Of course, unlike Cubans, you pay for this privledge... so it's not very representative of what the Cuban system is actually like.

[Cowboy89]

My big beef with the Canadian system is diagnostic services. We seem to do fairly well once doctors know exactly what is wrong and access to service isn't that bad once they know you have cancer, or other serious health conditions. But the amount of time waiting to determine these things is detremental to your health. In reality what do you want government health insurance for? For the $50 GP visit? $600 MRI? or the $120,000 Treatment for a serious illness? I'd take a service that covers the treatments and makes me pay for the rest. It's really the small stuff that costs the provinces the most amount of money because we have mandated that everything be publically funded. I know there are people out there that can't afford the small stuff and there should be assistance for them too but for the majority of us a GP visit and an MRI are not going to bankrupt us should we need it. If it makes the system more workable for the serious stuff then why not de-list Diagnostics and General Practice? This would go a long ways for retaining doctors too. Especially in Calgary where GP's are seeing their costs go up by 10% a year while the government mandated charge out rate only goes up by 3-4% a year. It's no wonder all of our doctors are getting into plastic surgery or leaving the country.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

In reality what do you want government health insurance for? For the $50 GP visit? $600 MRI? or the $120,000 Treatment for a serious illness?

I think your numbers are a little off; especially the MRI. When I got my concussion I had the option of paying for the MRI, and Canada Diagnostic Centres wanted $1300 for an MRI- and that was 3 years ago. And at that time I didn't have that kind of money sitting around to get it done.

Today I could do it; but that would be a stretch for me financially.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

My big beef with the Canadian system is diagnostic services.

Couldn't agree more. Last summer I had a severe case of double-vision and pain in my eyes for an entire weekend. I saw an optometrist, optomoligist and a neuro-optomoligist. Nobody would tell me what was wrong and kept saying they would get me an appointment for a CAT scan and call me back. Never found out what was wrong (you can only go around in the same circle so many times) and was never called back by any of them. Even after persistent hounding I never got an appointment for the CAT scan. To this day I occasionally get pain in my eyes that will usually last for about a week and then goes away.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The fact that we're losing doctors and can't get doctors who want to service rural areas is a huge problem.

And how do you address this problem? The main source of it is due to the mobility of Canadian doctors to migrate to the US and its for-profit health system.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by GreenTeaFrapp

And how do you address this problem? The main source of it is due to the mobility of Canadian doctors to migrate to the US and its for-profit health system.

My solution- free education for doctors. Have some sort of system in place that for every two or three years of practicing medicine in their home province, they write off one year of schooling costs.

I have known people who became doctors and are faced with almost $100K worth of student loans. Their solution is to find the quickest way of paying those off. If they know that they never have to pay them off, then all of a suddent they aren't looking at starting their practice elsewhere.

It may leave us with a bunch of younger doctors at first, but I think that many will want to stick around after spending so many years establishing their practices.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I think your numbers are a little off; especially the MRI. When I got my concussion I had the option of paying for the MRI, and Canada Diagnostic Centres wanted $1300 for an MRI- and that was 3 years ago. And at that time I didn't have that kind of money sitting around to get it done.

Today I could do it; but that would be a stretch for me financially.

I think it depends on what part(s) of your body need to be imaged, and how long that procedure takes.

For most joints, I believe it is somewhere between $600 and $800. Money well spent when you consider months in queue are months when treatment/surgery is not happening, and months where the condition likely worsens.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by AaronSJ

I've been to Cuban hospitals and clinics -- it's not "that good", as their biggest problem is a chronic shortage of supplies... they simply do without many basic items (drugs, bandages, dressings, etc.).

I believe a lot of this is due to the American embargo and collapse of the USSR. USSR used to help ship a lot of goods to Cuba, but when it collapsed all those shipments stopped.

As much as I would like to blame the unions, there is a nursing shortage and even if there were beds available there simply aren't the staff to take care of the people who would occupy them.

But I do thing there is a real issue with using resources. Last year a co-workers wife needed an emergency Cat-scan. I was told they sat in the cat-scan waiting area, by themselves, for over 2 hours. They could see the door to the scanning room. No one went in or out. There was a bunch of staff around. Then they got in and it was a short process and they were on their way. Why was a machine, for which it seems there is so much demand, sitting unused for so long?

I've heard that doctors have limits set on the amount of time that they are allowed to bill for. Does anyone know about this? If each doctor could conceiveably have a few hundered hours extra they could work, I would have no issue with them using those hours in for profit activities. As long as the majority of their time would still be in the standard public system.