Calgary Roads Discussion Thread

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by rohara66

Will 22x bridge be done in 2024... seems unlikely. FML

I find it hilarious that they started that bridge before the major work around Golden and the Golden highway still opened before this bridge. Even the event center will be underway before that bridge is done.

[BlackArcher101]

Don't forget, even if they do finish the bridge, I bet you the speed limit will be 80 until they do the final lift of asphalt and line painting in 2025. Golden is doing that lift now....

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I find it hilarious that they started that bridge before the major work around Golden and the Golden highway still opened before this bridge. Even the event center will be underway before that bridge is done.

To be fair, this project is two bridges. They demolished and built a new one, now they're refurbishing the other one

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

Don't forget, even if they do finish the bridge, I bet you the speed limit will be 80 until they do the final lift of asphalt and line painting in 2025. Golden is doing that lift now....

Hey!!! It should be 30! My dad works here! Only if your dad is a pylon and it would take a 747 piloted by a territorist to hit that worker. If it saves just one life it is worth for your precious commute.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by btimbit

To be fair, this project is two bridges. They demolished and built a new one, now they're refurbishing the other one

To be fair, phase 4 of the kicking horse twinning project has 4 bridges, 9 viaducts, 5 rock cuts, and 7 walls, all built in very difficult terrain on the side of a mountain over 4.8km.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Shazam

That's a misanalysis.

The goal was to shove the traffic up. Because what would happen is that NB traffic would get stuck on the bridge, since there was exactly one NB lane, so by the time you made it to the 10 Ave lights, there was hardly any traffic. Just getting to the 24th Ave lights took forever.

$87 million was also to rehabilitate the bridge. I'm going to go on a limb and say that most of that money was for the rehabilitation and additional lane. I mean maybe the original design of the bridge shouldn't have of all things an exit lane.

I find the notion of induced demand comical. By that asinine logic all you'd have to do to make money is open a business and wait for the customers to start buying.

If your business is a sweet new toll road you may have something there.

You don't believe that people make behavioural decisions about how/when/whether or not to go places, with travel time being a primary consideration?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I find the notion of induced demand comical.

That's too bad. It's a very real thing and we should be considering it on any road project. With that being said, the money spent on the Bow River bridge on Crowchild was extremely worthwhile regardless of induced demand.
- Lots of money was gonna be spent on rehabiliation regardless of any other changes
- It fixed the issue of one core lane going northbound through the area
- It fixed the left entrance from Bow Trail to northbound Crowchild
- It fixed the two poorly spaced exits onto Memorial

From a safety perspective it's a huge win.

[Ironhorse]

Are we really surprised? Funding deficits are now starting to pile up, and its going to be expensive to get caught up. But yeah, let's spend $72M to redo Olympic Plaza.

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Looks like Calgary has been in a "treading water" pattern on road rehabilitation for a while based on this tweet from Evan Spencer.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1788659594589606110

In a perfect world, roads get repairs before cracks get bad, or a full depth replacement before the roads are so bad you can't patch them. In the long-term it's way cheaper than waiting for the road to fail. That doesn't happen often because proactive maintenance is generally considered a luxury by those who approve budgets. They probably think short term, and they probably don't tax residents enough to cover all the lane kilometers the city adds every year. That's how you get roads that get really bad and also cost a ton to fix.

[Jimmy Stang]

^ He raises a good point though. Humans and budgets are always short-sighted, and people would complain either way. We tend to like things done on the cheap, even if it costs more later.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

To be fair, phase 4 of the kicking horse twinning project has 4 bridges, 9 viaducts, 5 rock cuts, and 7 walls, all built in very difficult terrain on the side of a mountain over 4.8km.

Yeah, totally comparable cost too

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Shazam

That's a misanalysis.

The goal was to shove the traffic up. Because what would happen is that NB traffic would get stuck on the bridge, since there was exactly one NB lane, so by the time you made it to the 10 Ave lights, there was hardly any traffic. Just getting to the 24th Ave lights took forever.

$87 million was also to rehabilitate the bridge. I'm going to go on a limb and say that most of that money was for the rehabilitation and additional lane. I mean maybe the original design of the bridge shouldn't have of all things an exit lane.

I find the notion of induced demand comical. By that asinine logic all you'd have to do to make money is open a business and wait for the customers to start buying.

To your point of induced demand your example is absolutely correct. In the absense of a business people won’t buy anything from you and the overall spending will be done somewhere else. If you open up a business some people will buy that good from you and more overall goods will be sold in the market. You hit induced demand exactly correct.

Now whether that induced demand and canabalized demand are enough to make money on your business is an open question but opening a business does create more demand and more sales for the widget being sold because access to the widget has improved.

[opendoor]

Comparing it to a business is a terrible example anyway. Like, if a driving route takes an hour and transit takes 45 minutes, but then the driving route is upgraded so it only takes 35 minutes, does anyone seriously believe that some of that transit ridership wouldn't shift to driving? That's induced demand.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Shazam

I find the notion of induced demand comical.

When buying a house, do you consider your commute length?

Would you build a new house on a lot that was 60 minutes from work?

What if that lot was now 20 minutes from work?

Ok, so you buy the house, and there is now one more car on that route. You aren't alone in this logic.

Demand has been induced, the road is now packed, and your commute is 50 minutes 10 years later.

[Manhattanboy]

22x bridge 3 years. Memorial Drive flyover 1.5 years. Mission Bridge over the mighty Elbow River 6 months.

Totally unacceptable.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

22x bridge 3 years. Memorial Drive flyover 1.5 years. Mission Bridge over the mighty Elbow River 6 months.

Totally unacceptable.

Bridge rehab projects aren't easy. The Memorial flyover is one of, if not the longest, bridge in the city. That makes it take longer to do the work. Making improvements beyond just replacing in kind, like with the Mission bridge? Takes a little longer too. The quickest way to do them? Close the bridge for the entire project. Too bad it's rarely done...the public backlash isn't worth the benefits. Even temporarily reducing the amount of lanes to speed up construction is a tough call for many projects because no one wants their commute to get a couple minutes longer for a few months.

So we get projects where the timeline drags out a bit so we can keep traffic moving on the bridge at the same time. The Bow River bridge on Stoney in the south? Yeah, that one's weird. The other two, though? I'm not sure how you speed them up without upsetting people more.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Bridge rehab projects aren't easy. The Memorial flyover is one of, if not the longest, bridge in the city. That makes it take longer to do the work. Making improvements beyond just replacing in kind, like with the Mission bridge? Takes a little longer too. The quickest way to do them? Close the bridge for the entire project. Too bad it's rarely done...the public backlash isn't worth the benefits. Even temporarily reducing the amount of lanes to speed up construction is a tough call for many projects because no one wants their commute to get a couple minutes longer for a few months.

So we get projects where the timeline drags out a bit so we can keep traffic moving on the bridge at the same time. The Bow River bridge on Stoney in the south? Yeah, that one's weird. The other two, though? I'm not sure how you speed them up without upsetting people more.

Bridge rehab is interesting, especially above a busy area, because you have to do it “gently”, which is slower. Lots of safety setup to do, to prevent broken pieces from falling down, and also to prevent workers from falling. Curves in both the X and Y axis - means that it’s hard to mass produce the pieces you need to fit, every part is a bit custom.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Bridge rehab is interesting, especially above a busy area, because you have to do it “gently”, which is slower. Lots of safety setup to do, to prevent broken pieces from falling down, and also to prevent workers from falling. Curves in both the X and Y axis - means that it’s hard to mass produce the pieces you need to fit, every part is a bit custom.

I'm so glad we're building (well probably not anymore unless they find some money) a fancy double apex bridge that connects to a century old bridge for the Green Line.

[cral12]

The potlicking pothole party of 'berta

https://twitter.com/user/status/1795983344846492086

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Bridge rehab projects aren't easy. The Memorial flyover is one of, if not the longest, bridge in the city. That makes it take longer to do the work. Making improvements beyond just replacing in kind, like with the Mission bridge? Takes a little longer too. The quickest way to do them? Close the bridge for the entire project. Too bad it's rarely done...the public backlash isn't worth the benefits. Even temporarily reducing the amount of lanes to speed up construction is a tough call for many projects because no one wants their commute to get a couple minutes longer for a few months.

So we get projects where the timeline drags out a bit so we can keep traffic moving on the bridge at the same time. The Bow River bridge on Stoney in the south? Yeah, that one's weird. The other two, though? I'm not sure how you speed them up without upsetting people more.

By doubling or tripling the crews and working nights and weekends.

But ya I get it budgets and other priorities.

[Locke]

Well, it looks like they fixed a lot of Glenmore Trail over the weekend although it also looks like they sent out the 'C' team to do it.

"Just fill it with Tar and call 'er a day!'