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Old 06-09-2007, 01:21 PM   #21
RougeUnderoos
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Originally Posted by Snakeeye View Post
The Liberals promised $2.9 billion, not "we". The Conservative government has no requirement to meet Liberal promises, and vice versa.
Oh come on, you don't really believe this intricacy means a thing to the rest of the world, do you?

The Liberal government spoke for Canada just like the Conservative government speaks for Canada now.

If the Liberal government promised 2.9 billion (like it or lump it), Canada promised 2.9 billion. If the Conservative government reneges on it, Canada reneges on it.

You and I and some other Canadians may know the difference, but to the rest of the world, it is Canada welching. It is not the Conservative Party of Canada led by Stephen Harper welching.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:26 PM   #22
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Again..why did you mention he was a singer in a rock band then?

Ummm...cause he is maybe?

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When I came into the thread the first few posts were all in defence of Harper if not his position.
They were? Where? I and others made light of how heinous the left like to portray him...all of which are false BTW. More the accusations by a rock and roll singer who also fancies himself a social activist that was flinging accusations that are unfounded was the "first few posts".

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Poor old Harper has been maligned... awww.
Malign him all you want....but when making stuff up to do so, it makes said "malignment" really weak.

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Just struck me as funny. You don't share that boo hoo.

Odd sense of humour I guess.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:51 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Flame On View Post
Captain you have a far more productive view of politicians than I do. To me it's the reverse. Multi millionaires that don't have to be involved that do more than just sling criticism impress me more than lip service politicians that essentially want to do the barest minimum and votes are the exclusive agenda.
I have no problem with a multi millionare have a charitable point of view, in fact its worthy of a lot of praise. And I'm singling Bono here because I think he's working hard at bringing the topic of African Poverty to light.

However my issue is that a lot of these millionaires don't factor in nationalist needs into thier formula's. So while its admirable that Bono wants Canada to pump double or triple the current buget into Africa, Bono has to realize that at the same time Canada has many internal issues that need money and attention. If Canada didn't have a crushing international debt, didn't have a poverty and illiteracy line, didn't need to build new roads and schools and hospitals, didn't have a crumbling military, a wreked health system and a myriad of other issues, I'd say go for it, triple our foreign aid. But right now and bono dosen't see it or dosen't want to see it, it would be like a middle class person giving half of his income to a poorer family while his house crumbles around him.

Combine that with the fact that continually throwing money into the African sinkhole without a say in how the money is spent, and with no guarantee that said money is going to go where its needed most is wasteful spending.

Its and I'm sorry to be going back to an older debate, the same issue that Canada is facing internally with the natives in that we're throwing money at a problem to solve it, but all we're doing currently is creating and inabling a bigger problem, because we know that the money is not going to the people that need it the most. We're also not creating any kind of independance in the African nations by throwing money at the problem, we're supporting the rise of warlord and despots while the grain rots on the dock or goes straight into the militaries stomach.

If the G8 truly wanted to be effective they would intercede into these crisis spots by creating oversight mechanisms to make sure that the money is used to solve imediate issues while creating solutions to the long terms issues so that we can eventually get out of the cycle of death and defeat that we're seeing now.

We're never going to stop the welfare cycle that we're in until we teach these nations how to fish.


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I have gone off topic though. Because in this case the sentiment of the thread is right. Harper isn't an issue.
I just object to the view that politicians are somehow the standard for getting things done and someone else who quite succesfully raises awareness of an issue is somehow belittled.
Not what I was saying at all actually, my concern is that Bono's view is pretty simple and straight forward, and that dosen't work in a fairly complex situation. I remember a few years ago, Bono was advocating the elimination of all third world foreign debts, which in itself sounds like a good idea, until these nations go back into imediate debt because they can now take advantage of the situation. His solution is simple, but short termed, if Bono truly wants to be a strong proponent of third world rights, then he has to take a global view of the entire situation, not the cosmetics aisle view that throwing money into a pot will make the issue dissapear.

If Harper is indeed looking at double the amount of foreign aid that Canada is spending then we and Bono should be applauding that action, and asking how the money is going to be spent and by who, as oppossed to throwing in blind critism.

Just my respectful three cents.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:04 PM   #24
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Harper should end the Third World conditions of the First Nations of Canada in his own country before dealing with Africa.
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Old 06-09-2007, 03:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos View Post
Oh come on, you don't really believe this intricacy means a thing to the rest of the world, do you?
I could care less what the rest of the world thinks. Much less a blowhard like Bono.

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Harper should end the Third World conditions of the First Nations of Canada in his own country before dealing with Africa.
Speaking of problems where simply throwing more money at it isn't the solution...

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Old 06-09-2007, 03:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by chris lindberg View Post
Harper should end the Third World conditions of the First Nations of Canada in his own country before dealing with Africa.
havent we been down this road a few times here lately?
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Old 06-09-2007, 05:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by chris lindberg View Post
Harper should end the Third World conditions of the First Nations of Canada in his own country before dealing with Africa.
And just dumping money at them, like Bono wants Harper to do with Africa, has worked so well.
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Old 06-09-2007, 05:55 PM   #28
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If the Western countries would quit ripping off Africa, they wouldn't have the big problems they have. I think it's in Liberia where a person can buy a chicken raised in France cheaper than a locally raised chicken, due to subsidies, trade laws, aid restrictions, etc. How can any economy survive under such conditions?

I've given links in another thread but I guess no one reads them, so why bother giving more. Look it up yourselves if you're interested.
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Old 06-09-2007, 06:04 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chris lindberg View Post
Harper should end the Third World conditions of the First Nations of Canada in his own country before dealing with Africa.
at what point do the native leaders become responsible for some of that mess?
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Old 06-09-2007, 11:09 PM   #30
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Ummm...cause he is maybe?
We both know that you were attempting to discredit his validity by boiling him down to a band singer. If you weren't you were pointing out useless trivia that we're all already aware of. So which is it?

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Malign him all you want....but when making stuff up to do so, it makes said "malignment" really weak.
I neither maligned him or made stuff up.

And Captain, thanks for your discussion. Although I will just come back to your comments about him being a rock slinger from the side lines.
Bono has been nominated for the Nobel Peace prize on 3 occasions.
Times 100 most influential persons on multiple occasions.
Created EDUN a
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socially conscious clothing company launched in Spring 2005 by Ali Hewson and Bono with New York clothing designer Rogan Gregory. The company's mission is to create beautiful clothing, while fostering sustainable employment in developing areas of the world, in particular Africa.
The aim to get away from aid to trade.
He also isn't shy about praise in 2002 he visited the whitehouse and said
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This is an important first step, and a serious and impressive new level of commitment.
after a 5 Billion aid package was announced.
He may have been unfounded in this case but chipping in from the side lines seems a little harsh and he's certainly not merely a rock and roll singer, at least in comparison to your boy the minority leader.
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Old 06-10-2007, 12:44 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Flame On View Post
And Captain, thanks for your discussion. Although I will just come back to your comments about him being a rock slinger from the side lines.
Bono has been nominated for the Nobel Peace prize on 3 occasions.
Times 100 most influential persons on multiple occasions.
Thought I'd come back on this, because it kind of goes against what I'm saying, its great that he's won the peace prize, and its great that he's won the times 100.

However my point is that its easy for Bono to throw critisism from his view point because he dosen't have to factor in a governments total responsibility which means that a country has to ensure that its own internal issues where money can be to some extent be accounted for and used for its ultimate ends can be somewhat assured.

I have no problem with aid to african nations.

However at this point, Bono to me is acting like the mafia character in the Simpsons where all he's talking about is the money, where's the money. Right now with humanitarian aid, there dosen't seem to be any true accountability so we seem to be following the least possible effective solution which in Bono's eyes is to continue to up the ante and up the inflowing cash without actually providing the best possible service to these nations.

The fact that Bono has accused Harper of acting as a global scrooge while our government has committed to doubling its aid to 2 billion dollars strikes me as a little odious as well.

I'm firmly on Harper's side, when he said that he went to the G8 meeting to meet with heads of government not with Bono. And the fact that the meetings from a Canadian stanpoint sounds like they were pretty productive says that Harper wasn't wrong in sticking to his agenda.
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Old 06-10-2007, 12:09 PM   #32
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I could care less what the rest of the world thinks.
Congratulations.
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