2023/2024 Trade Rumors and Speculation Thread

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I look at it simply. Are the Flames better off with Markstrom or with the assets they get from trading Markstrom. That should be the guide on how firm to be on the trade. Flames don’t have to sell Markstrom but it leaves them in a worse spot over the remainder of his contract. “Maximizing” the value of an asset to the point where there is no trade isn’t maximizing anything.

If you go into negotiations with that attitude, you'll lose every time.

Here's the thing with trade negotiations: BOTH teams want to make the deal. It's not like you're trying to talk the other team into buying a vacuum cleaner, they came in, looking for one. So you negotiate hard, and with purpose.

And if you never make the other side back away, then you are a pushover, which is far worse, long term, than missing the occasional deal.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bonded

They are also kind of admitting they are wrong by pursuing Markstorm and Saros.

they also finished it by saying when you don't have it, you realize that it is in fact very valuable

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

But there is a huge difference between asking too much (happens all the time) and screwing someone over. They aren't the same thing. If he plays hardball and it doesn't work, so be it. But that isn't going to get him blackballed, it's just going to give him a reputation as being a firm negotiator.

Fair enough. If we do end up losing out on Mercer/Holtz and your response to that is "that's fine, we tried to get even more and couldn't, so be it" then that's fine.

But if your response is "damn it, I would have been ok with Holtz + 1st" then you don't actually believe what you just said. If you're really ok with Holtz + 1st, then everything you're doing on top of that is just being shrewd.

[Royle9]

On the Kipper and Bourne show they sure seem to think the Markstrom trade has sailed.
Said it made perfect sense for NJD to go after both Markstrom and Tanev 2 weeks ago, thought it was done.

Now say they’ve played themselves out of it and unlikely they invest trying to save the year.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Fair enough. If we do end up losing out on Mercer/Holtz and your response to that is "that's fine, we tried to get even more and couldn't, so be it" then that's fine.

But if your response is "damn it, I would have been ok with Holtz + 1st" then you don't actually believe what you just said. If you're really ok with Holtz + 1st, then everything you're doing on top of that is just being shrewd.

None of this has anything to do with screwing anyone over.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

I really doubt Conroy is being unreasonable and out to screw them over.

From Marek's quote sounds like he wants fair compensation for two years of retention and I don't think it's poor form to hold out for that.

The devils will potentially get playoffs and more out of this deal with a relatively cheap high end starter moving forward so they're not getting screwed over at all if thats the return..

It's about not being doormats in the sellers position.

I agree, "screw over" may not be the best words. They may just believe what they're asking for in return for retention is fair value and sticking to it. That's great, but again if we lose out on Mercer/Holtz + 1st because we were pushing for an extra pick or whatever, I still consider that a huge lost opportunity. One that we might not get again.

[CroCop]

Originally Posted by Royle9

On the Kipper and Bourne show they sure seem to think the Markstrom trade has sailed.
Said it made perfect sense for NJD to go after both Markstrom and Tanev 2 weeks ago, thought it was done.

Now say they’ve played themselves out of it and unlikely they invest trying to save the year.

Bummer. That’s kind of what I was thinking too

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

I agree, "screw over" may not be the best words. They may just believe what they're asking for in return for retention is fair value and sticking to it. That's great, but again if we lose out on Mercer/Holtz + 1st because we were pushing for an extra pick or whatever, I still consider that a huge lost opportunity. One that we might not get again.

And that's fair. But I trust Conroy can read a room well enough to know when there isn't any more juice to squeeze.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

But only Edmonton went out and blew money on a UFA goalie. Flames and Leafs didn't make any changes.

Vegas won the cup despite goalie issues all year. Teams just don't blow 1sts and good young players for 34-year-old goalies.

If the Flames can get a 1st or Mercer or Holtz, take it. It's not going to be 2 or 3 of that calibre pieces coming back.

Calgary didn’t make changes because of other factors. Edmonton decided to sign Campbell.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Calgary didn’t make changes because of other factors. Edmonton decided to sign Campbell.

Point is, teams that lose in playoffs due to poor goaltending don't always just go out and blow valuable assets to get a good one. Goalies are up and down year over year, other than a select few.

Markstrom, Bobrovsky, Vanecek, Demko, Oettinger, Binnington, Kuemper, Fleury. Some of these goalies have won a cup and other years have played like an AHL goalie at best.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If you go into negotiations with that attitude, you'll lose every time.

Here's the thing with trade negotiations: BOTH teams want to make the deal. It's not like you're trying to talk the other team into buying a vacuum cleaner, they came in, looking for one. So you negotiate hard, and with purpose.

And if you never make the other side back away, then you are a pushover, which is far worse, long term, than missing the occasional deal.

I disagree. Obviously you want to maximize every trade you can buy at some point you have to look at the pipeline and decide to take a good deal to keep turning your position and set yourself up for future opportunities. You can create multiple opportunities to create value or get hung up on 100% winning a single trade and lose the opportunity.

I’d 100% agree if the rumoured trade returns were bad but they weren’t.

I actually don’t think Conroy negotiated too hard if the value for Markstrom was agreed upon. I think he had to negotiate with the rules given to him on retention and it made the deal very hard to get across the finish line.

[Groot]

Also just wanted to point out Markstroms salary structure. This year it is $8 million salary. Final 2 years it's $3,500,000 salary and $2,500,000 signing bonus, so an exact match to the salary cap hit at $6,000,000 with $12,000,000 owed over 2 years. After the bonus is paid on July 1, should he remain with the Flames till then, he's only owed $9,500,000 in real money.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Groot

Also just wanted to point out Markstroms salary structure. This year it is $8 million salary. Final 2 years it's $3,500,000 salary and $2,500,000 signing bonus, so an exact match to the salary cap hit at $6,000,000 with $12,000,000 owed over 2 years. After the bonus is paid on July 1, should he remain with the Flames till then, he's only owed $9,500,000 in real money.

Of the teams that need a goalie and Markstrom would waive to go to, I doubt its a huge factor. Cap hit is though.

I could see Markstrom waving to LA, Toronto or NJ and these teams would be interested. But 2 have huge cap issues and would need 50% retained. Leafs don't have a ton of assets to trade too.

If NJ is offering a 1st and Mercer for 25% retained, I don't see LA beating that without 50% retained as they have RFAs that will break the bank this summer.

I don't see anyone beating NJ for Markstrom and NJ knows it.

It's similar to when Tkachuk was available, teams knew Tkachuk had the Flames in a bad spot. Remove the NMC, maybe we get more for Markstrom, but he has a NMC.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I’m hoping Conroy didn’t #### this up by overplaying his hand. You need to understand your target and their motivations. Missing their playoff window is a massive fail as that was the leverage. The trade should have been made before the stadium series game, or at worst before this weekend. Missing this window is a mistake, one Conroy should have to answer for. The market for Markstrom is not going to improve moving forward.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I’m hoping Conroy didn’t #### this up by overplaying his hand. You need to understand your target and their motivations. Missing their playoff window is a massive fail as that was the leverage. The trade should have been made before the stadium series game, or at worst before this weekend. Missing this window is a mistake, one Conroy should have to answer for. The market for Markstrom is not going to improve moving forward.

If the deal was basically done and even Markstrom thought he was traded then I’m putting the blame on Murray and wanting too much for retention

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

The only top 5 pick we've ever had ended up being Sam Bennett and he's not even a Flame anymore.

I'd rather have the dead boat anchor asset turn into something that we can get a return for, especially with some of the returns that have been rumored on here.

There is still time to get into the top ten of the 2024 draft though.

Im just saying a top 5 pick could be better. Maybe, maybe not.

Team isnt going anywhere without at least a Superstar.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I’m hoping Conroy didn’t #### this up by overplaying his hand. You need to understand your target and their motivations. Missing their playoff window is a massive fail as that was the leverage. The trade should have been made before the stadium series game, or at worst before this weekend. Missing this window is a mistake, one Conroy should have to answer for. The market for Markstrom is not going to improve moving forward.

How can you judge this without knowing what the deal was including what value was being offered for the retention.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I’m hoping Conroy didn’t #### this up by overplaying his hand. You need to understand your target and their motivations. Missing their playoff window is a massive fail as that was the leverage. The trade should have been made before the stadium series game, or at worst before this weekend. Missing this window is a mistake, one Conroy should have to answer for. The market for Markstrom is not going to improve moving forward.

Lol

[DSIM420]

I am sure the Flames will be able to revisit the trade in the offseason. NJ will still need a goalie after this season and if Markstrom takes the Flames to the playoffs I think the market will be bigger for him not to mention his value.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I’m hoping Conroy didn’t #### this up by overplaying his hand. You need to understand your target and their motivations. Missing their playoff window is a massive fail as that was the leverage. The trade should have been made before the stadium series game, or at worst before this weekend. Missing this window is a mistake, one Conroy should have to answer for. The market for Markstrom is not going to improve moving forward.

Sounds like retention was a major issue. Conroy likely has little to know say in that. The owners don't like to spend money on retention. It's cost the team assets before, and it'll cost the team again.