Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still waiting for the suggestions for how Hamas can be removed from power without invading and occupying Gaza.

Still waiting for you to clarify whether you consider all Palestinian people to be enemies?

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Has any combatant in a war ever valued their enemies’ lives equal to their own?

Originally Posted by Bagor

All civilians = enemies?
What are you saying here?

[Harry Lime]

I don't have a lot of time for a government that pays their soldiers in promised rape. Putin used the same tactics.

Pepsi, you talk about a worse horror than what Manhattan just posted, and I can't imagine how that is possible. Maybe I don't want to know. Bagor, in most posts you talk about how half the Palestinian dead are infants or children, and I'm not sure how that is logically possible. That is one of the claims that make me question the validity of what the health authority reports, because the counts appear to be for maximum emotional effect and outrage.

The dialogue in here has devolved into an emotional sparring match between sides, and you guys have mirrored the energy of some of the Israeli posters that were here earlier. By reading this thread, it's becoming impossible to get a snapshot of what is happening, because it's become about oneupsmanship.

Hamas perpetrated one of the most horrible attacks on a civilian population in a long time, trying to put Mariupol to shame, and that says a lot. Israel responds with a predictable military flex, designed to end Gaza. It's all horrible.

When was the last time this thread talked about the stalled diplomatic attempts or the rejected proposal by Egypt, or crazy outside the box options like gifting Syria to Palestine the same way Israel was created? That's what I come to CP for. Torture porn is on reddit.

Now I'm do my best to avoid this thread, as I know I'll be torn apart.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Bagor, in most posts you talk about how half the Palestinian dead are infants or children, and I'm not sure how that is logically possible. That is one of the claims that make me question the validity of what the health authority reports, because the counts appear to be for maximum emotional effect and outrage.

Speaks volumes that you're willing to dismiss it so readily without considering it, or checking it for yourself. Bias much?

On average, nearly 300 people have been killed each day since the start of the conflict, excluding the seven-day ceasefire, data from Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry indicates. The World Health Organization's regional emergency director Richard Brennan says he considers these casualty figures trustworthy.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67764664

Unless you're another one of the the WHO is antisemitic brigade why shouldn't they be believed. Even the Americans are saying the numbers are probably underreported. Who knows how many are under the rubble. How many are dying from indirect effects? Disease, malnutrition, lack of access to basic healthcare?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Bagor, in most posts you talk about how half the Palestinian dead are infants or children, and I'm not sure how that is logically possible. That is one of the claims that make me question the validity of what the health authority reports, because the counts appear to be for maximum emotional effect and outrage.

Why is that so hard to believe? Infants and children make up about half the population of Gaza, so it's not too surprising that they'd make up half of the casualties.

If the IDF was operating with more precision, then yes that might be hard to believe. But given that they're using heavy munitions in a densely populated area and that they apparently shot 3 of their own hostages who were waving a white flag, I don't think the casualty breakdown is particularly hard to believe.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Still waiting for the suggestions for how Hamas can be removed from power without invading and occupying Gaza.

Hamas surviving as a political party and Hamas surviving as a terrorist organization are two different things. Unless the IDF goes into Qatar, Hamas the terrorist organization (and the perpetrators of the horrific October 7 attacks) will absolutely survive, despite the civilian bloodshed.

Hamas the terrorist organization will come out of this stronger than ever, with emotional fuel for the next several decades, and probably resulting foreign financial support too.

[TherapyforGlencross]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Wow! That's serious. You got a link for that?

Here’s an article. I couldn’t find anything that mentioned flares.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/can...c426693e3/amp/

‘cancel christmas’

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by TherapyforGlencross

Here’s an article. I couldn’t find anything that mentioned flares.

Yeah. It's an article mentioning firing of flares at drivers I'm after.

It must be out there otherwise why would FA say what he did?

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

they were firing flares to scare drivers.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Yeah. It's an article mentioning firing of flares at drivers I'm after.

It must be out there otherwise why would FA say what he did?

I did a quick google search earlier, Toronto sun article mentioned flares were set off, but nothing about shooting at drivers( granted I just glanced at the article) I would post it but I am pretty not very good at linking articles, but definitely didn’t take long to find.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Hamas surviving as a political party and Hamas surviving as a terrorist organization are two different things. Unless the IDF goes into Qatar, Hamas the terrorist organization (and the perpetrators of the horrific October 7 attacks) will absolutely survive, despite the civilian bloodshed.

Hamas the terrorist organization will come out of this stronger than ever, with emotional fuel for the next several decades, and probably resulting foreign financial support too.

Make no mistake they will be hunted down eventually and it wont matter where they are.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Hamas surviving as a political party and Hamas surviving as a terrorist organization are two different things. Unless the IDF goes into Qatar, Hamas the terrorist organization (and the perpetrators of the horrific October 7 attacks) will absolutely survive, despite the civilian bloodshed.

Hamas the terrorist organization will come out of this stronger than ever, with emotional fuel for the next several decades, and probably resulting foreign financial support too.

And unfortunately Israel will always be a nation at war.

[Manhattanboy]

Pepsi this is the documentary I was referring to:

Israel’s Yes Studios Releases Trailer for Documentary of Real-Time Footage From Nova Music Festival Massacre

https://flip.it/8EISOP

No commentary. Just live footage.

[Manhattanboy]

Edit: double post

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

the same people who want to pour over the horrific details (the rollout of which borders on terror porn) of that day again and again

Got this response. Here's a link for a trailer for a borderline terror porn movie? Wtf?

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Pepsi this is the documentary I was referring to:

Israel’s Yes Studios Releases Trailer for Documentary of Real-Time Footage From Nova Music Festival Massacre

https://flip.it/8EISOP

No commentary. Just live footage.

What exactly is your point here? What are you trying to say? What is your motive behind this? Because all I can garner is that you're seeking to justify genocide.

I repeat. We all agree that the actions of Oct 7th were vile and evil.

But there ALSO is a slaughter of innocents currently taking place. Are you constantly trying to justify it?

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m not sure why you’d even ask when we know the answer is definitively “no.”

i figured I'd ask anyways to see if he could at least own it.

[Bagor]

South Africa has filed a case at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) alleging that Israel is engaging in "genocidal acts" in Gaza.

The UN court confirmed the application concerning alleged violations of Israel's obligations under the Genocide Convention.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67844551

[WCW Nitro]

All this talk about how Palestinian lives will be much improved should Hamas be eliminated, when we have a test case in the West Bank where Hamas is not the authority and the result is Israel kicks people out of their homes and builds settlemts, along with the many who have also died there since 10/07.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

And unfortunately Israel will always be a nation at war.

With a population that is 15% Russian and also a high percentage of radical religious nuts I think they prefer it that way.

They have always been looking for an excuse to "Defend" themselves.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

With a population that is 15% Russian and also a high percentage of radical religious nuts I think they prefer it that way.

They have always been looking for an excuse to "Defend" themselves.

The first generation of Jewish settlers in the 20th century were irreligious socialists who founded kibbutz in the sparsely populated hinterland. If they were radical in any way, it was because they were Marxist. The religious nuts only came later.

It’s fair to say the expansion of orthodox religious settlements in the West Bank over the last 20 years has antagonized the Palestinians and pushed Israeli politics to the right. But Israelis have been defending their communities from hostile neighbours for a lot longer than 20 years.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Why is that so hard to believe? Infants and children make up about half the population of Gaza, so it's not too surprising that they'd make up half of the casualties.

If the IDF was operating with more precision, then yes that might be hard to believe. But given that they're using heavy munitions in a densely populated area and that they apparently shot 3 of their own hostages who were waving a white flag, I don't think the casualty breakdown is particularly hard to believe.

A large amount of the damage is in the North where Israel had told everyone to leave, so wouldn't children have vacated those areas first?

I know Isreal has also bombed in the South too and IMO have certainly gone way overboard in their attacks.
But I do think the reported children number is likely inflated considering how much of the damage is in areas children should have been evacuated first.
The death toll shouldn't be proportionate to normal population numbers since populations start to move out of warzones.

[Bagor]

^Your post is very speculative. Have you missed the bit where they've been bombing the crap out of civilian areas and refugee camps with 2000lb bombs? You don't accept the UN when they y say the figures are trustworthy.

Even the Americans are saying that the numbers are probably underreported not taking into account those buried under the rubble.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bagor

^Your post is very speculative. Have you missed the bit where they've been bombing the crap out of civilian areas and refugee camps with 2000lb bombs? You don't accept the UN when they y say the figures are trustworthy.

Even the Americans are saying that the numbers are probably underreported not taking into account those buried under the rubble.

In the end Hamas started this mess with the barbaric slaughter of innocent men,women and children and they could end this in one minute, surrender and give back the hostages.

But you know what? it won't happen because the Hamas leaders want this, they could care less about civilians being bombed as long as it makes Israel look like the bad guys.