2023/24 Blue Jays Off Season Thread

[bluejays]

IMO, this defensive first approach in the OF is a huge miss. You have to have an OF that can still hit for average or better. I have a big problem with just saying "defence wins championships". What we seen last year was guys getting into scoring position and not being cashed in. Varsho, IKF, Biggio, Kiermaier, all have questions around what they're doing with their bat. That's a huge problem. Based on last year I think Biggio has the chance of a breakout season, so I'd like to see him at 2nd, but KK, Varsho, and IKF in the lineup is very very meh. This team isn't better than last year no matter what Rogers media says. Bellinger for 10 years is a scary scary proposition.

[SuperMatt18]

If not Bellinger then what OF Bat is really an improvement?

To me it feels like they want to have Varsho, Kiermaier, and Springer as a strong defensive outfield, but really those guys aren't going to play every day and Springer likely needs some time at DH this upcoming season.

Bellinger remains interesting since he can play OF, 1B, or probably DH for this team.

Maybe they look at Teoscar again...but I wonder if they would look at him as more of a DH that can play outfield more than a full time outfielder, so more of a guy that will spell off one of the other three when they need a day off.

Outside of Teoscar and Bellinger though there aren't really any power bats available that can play outfield in free agency.

So then you're looking at a trade. They didn't pay the price for Soto. Verdugo doesn't add any pop. So it would be Max Kepler (do you really want to give up assets for a UFA at seasons end), or would it be if you could somehow convince Tampa to trade Arozarena which would come at a huge cost

Or they go with a strong defensive outfield and try to fill the power deficit at 3B and DH instead.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by bluejays

IMO, this defensive first approach in the OF is a huge miss. You have to have an OF that can still hit for average or better. I have a big problem with just saying "defence wins championships". What we seen last year was guys getting into scoring position and not being cashed in. Varsho, IKF, Biggio, Kiermaier, all have questions around what they're doing with their bat. That's a huge problem. Based on last year I think Biggio has the chance of a breakout season, so I'd like to see him at 2nd, but KK, Varsho, and IKF in the lineup is very very meh. This team isn't better than last year no matter what Rogers media says. Bellinger for 10 years is a scary scary proposition.

Well, firstly the off season isn't over yet.

Also, secondly they tried to land Ohtani the only real difference maker bat in free agency this year. He was always going to the Dodgers though, so not much they could do.

They also tried to get Soto, but the Yankees gave up a ton to get him and were willing to give more to get him because unlike the Jays they actually have a chance of keeping him for more than just one year.

The free agent pool this year is really weak when it comes to legit bats. The best one remaining is Bellinger but he has huge question marks but wants to be paid like he doesn't hhave question marks because he a good year.

The jays are doing what they can. Players like KK and IKF raise the floor of the team. More of a sure thing than the pile of prospects the Jays have knocking on the door. The good thing is though, if any of those prospects actually shine they won't be blocked by guys like KK and IKF. They are insurance, and you need to add wins to the team no matter if it's offense, defense, baserunning or pitching.

I strongly suspect we will see another move soon. Either they will commit to Bellinger with a plan to play him at 1B quite a bit, or a trade for an OF bat. Manoah, Espinal and a pile of near MLB ready IF prospects are all primed to be packaged up for soe=mething. Heck, maybe they'll do both. Just have to wait and see.

[Roof-Daddy]

My hope right now is that the Jays trade for Machado. He's still a very good 3B and has a big bat to go with it. He will also be very cheap to acquire because his contract is absolutely terrible. The Padres would have to eat some of that. The team will be better for the next few years, but after that there will be some serious pain to deal with.

I also hope they sign Bellinger.

These are risky moves but probably add 4 wins on the low side and maybe as much as 10 wins on the upside.

Springer - RF/DH
Bichette - SS
Guerrero - 1B/DH
Machado - 3B
Bellinger - 1B/OF
Kirk/Jansen - C
Varsho - CF/LF
Biggio/Schneider/IKF - 2B/3B/SS
Kiermaier - CF/LF

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If not Bellinger then what OF Bat is really an improvement?

To me it feels like they want to have Varsho, Kiermaier, and Springer as a strong defensive outfield, but really those guys aren't going to play every day and Springer likely needs some time at DH this upcoming season.

Bellinger remains interesting since he can play OF, 1B, or probably DH for this team.

Maybe they look at Teoscar again...but I wonder if they would look at him as more of a DH that can play outfield more than a full time outfielder, so more of a guy that will spell off one of the other three when they need a day off.

Outside of Teoscar and Bellinger though there aren't really any power bats available that can play outfield in free agency.

So then you're looking at a trade. They didn't pay the price for Soto. Verdugo doesn't add any pop. So it would be Max Kepler (do you really want to give up assets for a UFA at seasons end), or would it be if you could somehow convince Tampa to trade Arozarena which would come at a huge cost

Or they go with a strong defensive outfield and try to fill the power deficit at 3B and DH instead.

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Well, firstly the off season isn't over yet.

Also, secondly they tried to land Ohtani the only real difference maker bat in free agency this year. He was always going to the Dodgers though, so not much they could do.

They also tried to get Soto, but the Yankees gave up a ton to get him and were willing to give more to get him because unlike the Jays they actually have a chance of keeping him for more than just one year.

The free agent pool this year is really weak when it comes to legit bats. The best one remaining is Bellinger but he has huge question marks but wants to be paid like he doesn't hhave question marks because he a good year.

The jays are doing what they can. Players like KK and IKF raise the floor of the team. More of a sure thing than the pile of prospects the Jays have knocking on the door. The good thing is though, if any of those prospects actually shine they won't be blocked by guys like KK and IKF. They are insurance, and you need to add wins to the team no matter if it's offense, defense, baserunning or pitching.

I strongly suspect we will see another move soon. Either they will commit to Bellinger with a plan to play him at 1B quite a bit, or a trade for an OF bat. Manoah, Espinal and a pile of near MLB ready IF prospects are all primed to be packaged up for soe=mething. Heck, maybe they'll do both. Just have to wait and see.

They pretty much have to make a deal with Bo, Vlad or Manoah. Based on last years' deal from a position of strength, I'd guess Manoah could be dealt, though there was strong wording toward keeping him. Agree that their floor was marginally raised, but the offence is still poorly constructed. The lineup is akin to anything Riccardi had back in the day. Just too many question marks. It was never going to be solved through free agency in a year like this. In the past there were also murmurers of guys not liking playing multiple positions and being shifted around too much. Having versatility is positive but the musical chairs which is in the cards seemingly, isn't a big positive from a player standpoint. As a fan it's a bit frustrating honestly. Some of this could've been solve through free agency in a regular year, but this year it's poor all around, and with the consequent depletion of the prospect pool it only leaves us room for addressing through a trade. I don't mind Teo taking the DH spot but he can't be an OFer. He was terrible defensively. He has to be an average defender to be on the field. Given the moves they've done I can't see him on the team. I'll say, I'd like to move George to DH, and filling the RF with IKF. Then deal Manoah for a 3B. Leaves 2B for Biggio to lose. That OF offence looks among the worst in MLB offence though.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

My hope right now is that the Jays trade for Machado. He's still a very good 3B and has a big bat to go with it. He will also be very cheap to acquire because his contract is absolutely terrible. The Padres would have to eat some of that. The team will be better for the next few years, but after that there will be some serious pain to deal with.

I also hope they sign Bellinger.

These are risky moves but probably add 4 wins on the low side and maybe as much as 10 wins on the upside.

Springer - RF/DH
Bichette - SS
Guerrero - 1B/DH
Machado - 3B
Bellinger - 1B/OF
Kirk/Jansen - C
Varsho - CF/LF
Biggio/Schneider/IKF - 2B/3B/SS
Kiermaier - CF/LF

I like the idea of Machado, but that contract is going to be paid until he's 41! You'd have to get a damn good prospect with him to make it worth your time, and I don't think SD would be inclined to include a prospect with him (but would want something in return). Seems like they're stuck with him.

[SuperMatt18]

I don't see a trade out there with Bo or Vlad that truly makes this team better.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don't see a trade out there with Bo or Vlad that truly makes this team better.

I'd argue a couple things:

• this team as it is, including Bellinger even, isn't a championship roster. If we are generally in an agreement there, the question is how do we get it there? I'd say the answer is to trade Vlad and/or Bo depending on contractual status, to retool with high end prospects to go for it after this year
• the current roster isn't top to bottom a threat. With major question around Varsho, IKF, KK, and Biggio being among the most glaring questions on offence. If we agree on that it's a question of needing higher quality for multiple positions (not just one). If we agree on that than Vlad and/or Bo can get you quality and quantity

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by cross16

Technically they didn't. He left.

Yeah but he left because they didn't agree with his philopsophy of trading talent instead of developing talent. To be honest, if AA were still GM, would Vladdy and Bichette be Blue Jays or traded away while still in Buffalo?

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

To be honest, if AA were still GM, would Vladdy and Bichette be Blue Jays or traded away while still in Buffalo?

Those are two I don't think he would have moved.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Inferno

Those are two I don't think he would have moved.

He moved Syndergaard. No one was safe.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yeah but he left because they didn't agree with his philopsophy of trading talent instead of developing talent. To be honest, if AA were still GM, would Vladdy and Bichette be Blue Jays or traded away while still in Buffalo?

Or would the Jays be a contender, and a division leader.

Trading Vladdy might be the smart move....

[bluejays]

The what ifs on AA in what he would have done for existing players we wouldn’t know. I feel confident in saying AA was a better talent evaluator. He drafted our stars, Syndergaard, and the plethora of high end talent the Braves have now. Our current management has done some alright picks and picking out some winners in their trades, but nowhere near what AA has done.

[flamingred89]

AA was a gunslinger who wanted autonomy. The Jays, being a budget team for many many years, wanted to play it safe. So they pivoted. Even after AA and his bold moves saved the franchise in a lot of ways. The Jays circa 2012-2016 were some of my favourite versions of this team. Hitting lots of bombs and had a ton of characters. The 2013 trade with the Marlins blew up spectacularly but you cant deny the hype heading into that season. And then we all loved to hate Josh Johnson. And then all loved to love Bhuerle. So it was kind of a wild ride.

Atkins was gifted Vladdy as a prospect and hit a homerun with Bo. So the foundation was set to see what he could do. But his smarter than everyone in the room attitude rubs me the wrong way. And having 0 playoff wins also rubs me the wrong way(2016 was AA's team still).

I personally romanticize AA in a lot of ways and there's definitely a recency bias when it comes to Atkins. But one has to wonder what a gunslinger could do with a team with a foundation like the Jays.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by flamingred89

AA was a gunslinger who wanted autonomy. The Jays, being a budget team for many many years, wanted to play it safe. So they pivoted. Even after AA and his bold moves saved the franchise in a lot of ways. The Jays circa 2012-2016 were some of my favourite versions of this team. Hitting lots of bombs and had a ton of characters. The 2013 trade with the Marlins blew up spectacularly but you cant deny the hype heading into that season. And then we all loved to hate Josh Johnson. And then all loved to love Bhuerle. So it was kind of a wild ride.

Atkins was gifted Vladdy as a prospect and hit a homerun with Bo. So the foundation was set to see what he could do. But his smarter than everyone in the room attitude rubs me the wrong way. And having 0 playoff wins also rubs me the wrong way(2016 was AA's team still).

I personally romanticize AA in a lot of ways and there's definitely a recency bias when it comes to Atkins. But one has to wonder what a gunslinger could do with a team with a foundation like the Jays.

I stand corrected. I didn’t realize Bo was an Atkins draftee. That year was pretty rough so he definitely hit a home run. Perhaps the best player that draft.

The challenge with Toronto is that for all their pro teams being owned by hands off ownership, all the teams require an established businessman who speaks the languages of the boards. So a baseball guy who may be seen as not translating baseball to business, means that AA wasn’t destined to be President. It sucked then and it sucks now but that’s the nature of corporate owned sports. Shapiro had a business name based on his dad’s involvement with pro sports in Canada and the rest is history. It would have been nice to have Shapiro and Atkins if they were able to work that relationship out, but here we are. I wouldn’t go so far to call Atkins a fraud, but he hasn’t lived up to the billing of having a steady stable of prospects being able to come up. He’s been mediocre at that and it’s painful to see him give up a lot in prospect capital. Barrios was an overpay then and fortunately the prospects didn’t pan out but the Varsho one was a disaster. To also not employ a running game when you had a mobile enough lineup, is just stupidity.

[SuperMatt18]

AA inherited a lot of talent in Atlanta

Freeman, Fried, Acuna Jr, Riley, Albies, Swanson and a couple other key pieces were all on the system when he took over the Braves

Strider and Harris II are the two biggest names he's drafted.

The thing AA has been good at is the same thing he did at times for the Jays...which was pillage talent from the Oakland A's in trades which is what he did with Olson and Sean Murphy. Helped that Olson wanted to re-sign in his hometown

[Roof-Daddy]

Man I want the Jays to get Machado now. Padres are broke and cutting salary. Get them to eat 1/3 of what's left, it'd be like signing Machado to a 10 year $200 million contract and just like that the Jays have a 4+ fWAR 3B and I doubt they give much up to get him.

[KelVarnsen]

Paolo Espino for Machado.

[bluejays]

Just checked the OLG betting site and currently the Jays are the favourites to win the AL? What the heck are they thinking? Yanks have some pitching issues but have too good a lineup to not be better than the Jays. Add in Baltimore, Tampa and others and I don't see how they're ranking the Jays high with the lineup they are currently fielding. They're also ranking them third favourite to take it all. Crazy.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Just checked the OLG betting site and currently the Jays are the favourites to win the AL? What the heck are they thinking? Yanks have some pitching issues but have too good a lineup to not be better than the Jays. Add in Baltimore, Tampa and others and I don't see how they're ranking the Jays high with the lineup they are currently fielding. They're also ranking them third favourite to take it all. Crazy.

It's OLG, they want people to bite on the Jays to make money.

Back in 2022 when the Jays played the Phillies in September I thought the Phillies were junk, and they ended up in the World Series.

In July 2023 when the Jays played the Dbacks I thought how are the Dbacks in the hunt for a wild card spot, they don't look that good. They made the world series.

Baseball can be very random (especially in the playoffs) due to pitching and umps changing the tide with bad calls throughout a game. You just never know how things will turn out.