[Game Takes] Canucks 4 Flames 3

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ok, look at the total sample size. They’ve won more in front of Markstrom than Vladar.

And they’ve also lost more in front of Markstrom (6-8-2) than Vladar (4-2-1)

Not sure where you were going with that

This loss wasn’t on the goalie, I will also note

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ok, look at the total sample size. They’ve won more in front of Markstrom than Vladar.

Because he played 3+ x more.

Cmon man, dont make this a weird bicker back and forth. This and last year especially its been a weird thing that happens where they just seem to find a way to win in front of Vladar.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Their best defensive game of the season was Thursday without Zadorov

Maybe let's give it more than 2 games...it's not like last night was their worst either

Believe I saw you using a single game as proof Zadorov wasn't needed.

I think you're fooling yourself if you don't see the gaping hole on the blueline with Zadorov gone.

He wasn't a top pairing defenseman, he wasn't a middle pair defenseman but he was always knocking on that door.

The Flames defense has gone from

2 2 3 3 5 7

to

2 2 3 3 7 8

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Markstrom can stand on his head all night long. The saves percentage stat doesn't show how bad defensively the team is or how good the opposition team is in their defensive zones. The goalie is only one of six positions on the ice. If the Flames played their game on the other end of the ice and Markstrom gets no shots, his save percentage is 0.0% and if he gets 1 shot in the whole game and no goals, that's 100%, even if the puck is shot from 200ft from the other end of the rink. Just saying - he's not the problem for the Flames, especially this season.

I don't think that is what goalie stats which takes into account chance quality say. He is either mid pack (moneypuck) or bottom third (natural Stat trick) - of the 32 goalies who've played the most.

He was okay last night, but that first goal was bad. If he could have weathered the storm from Van in the first couple minutes it may have been a different game.

On the whole his body if work as a Flame is quite disappointing. 1 very good season, one slightly below average season, one horrific season. So far it seems like this season will be trending towards him being pretty average. If the Flames get one above average season out of his six years that will be pretty disappointing.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Because he played 3+ x more.

Cmon man, dont make this a weird bicker back and forth. This and last year especially its been a weird thing that happens where they just seem to find a way to win in front of Vladar.

They actually play better in front of Markstrom for the most part, but don't finish as much.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They actually play better in front of Markstrom for the most part, but don't finish as much.

Ya probably. I dont know what any of the advanced stats say, I just know they seem to find ways to win in front of Vladar. Thats just my eye test. This season and last for sure.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He certainly wasn't the problem last night, and doesn't appear to be the problem on any night.

But can't hide from that save percentage for sure.

The first goal was atrocious.

The rest of the game, he did his job.

They lost by one.

There is a LOT more to the story than that, but true none the less.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

For some reason the Flames lke to win in front of Vladar and not in front of Markstrom.

Some would suggest this is coincidence.

I believe there is more to it. Finding a way to win, matters. It matters more than stats.

[Bingo]

I think it's just some randomness to the game.

If the Flames (both Sutter and Huska) believed there was more to it than that then you'd think we'd see a difference in deployment.

Having said that, with Vladar's performance against Vegas I think they need to get him back in there soon.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ok, look at the total sample size. They’ve won more in front of Markstrom than Vladar.

Okay, let's look a the total sample size:

Markstrom: 6-8-2, .438
Vladdar.....: 4-2-1, .643

Markstrom played really well last night, except for the first shot. If he saves that, it is a different hockey game. That game was winnable.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Bonded

The defence is going to be so bad when Hanifin and Tanev are gone

Careful what you wish for.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think it's just some randomness to the game.

If the Flames (both Sutter and Huska) believed there was more to it than that then you'd think we'd see a difference in deployment.

Having said that, with Vladar's performance against Vegas I think they need to get him back in there soon.

Last season:

Markstrom: 23-21-12, .518

Vladdar.....: 14-6-5, .660

We now have over 100 games of data - when does the randomness average out?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Well, if there are any offers on the table for Markstrom (and if he waives) then the sooner they make a deal the better.



I do remember that when Markstrom was first acquired, InGoal magazine had him listed as the only goalie that season not to let in a bad goal (and their definition, IIRC, was a goal from a certain distance, with clear vision of the puck, no deflections, and in which the goalie was set - at least that's what I remember the definition being). However, he was ranked a little lower (still strong, but lower) for high-danger chances against. Markstrom was the ideal type of goalie to win a championship with behind a strong defence.


With the defence being weakened (and as a whole, probably allowing too good of chances against compared to the overall number of shots against), I would expect Markstrom's numbers (and probably Vladar's numbers as well) to start regressing. When (or if) Tanev/Hanifin are traded, the numbers will most definitely get worse.


Maybe some goalies thrive under chances against. Maybe the numbers actually go the other way, though I wouldn't bet on that, especially given Markstrom's age. I would expect more injuries from goalies that are getting overworked in game after game too. Point is, if the defence is going to be cratered, hopefully one of the goalies can be moved first for some value. If there is no value, then the value that they provide is sheltering Wolf from poor defensive play.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Last season:

Markstrom: 23-21-12, .518

Vladdar.....: 14-6-5, .660

We now have over 100 games of data - when does the randomness average out?

Do you think Markstrom from last year and this year are the same goaltender though?

I don't.

He looks much better this season, so I draw a line there too.

I just don't see shooting percentage for your own team, the difference between the two this season, as a goalie controlled stat.

Why would the goalie with lesser stats, and lesser difficulty in gaining those stats inspire a team to shoot better?

[Enoch Root]

To add up the two seasons so far:

29-29-14, .500
18-8-6, .656

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Do you think Markstrom from last year and this year are the same goaltender though?

I don't.

He looks much better this season, so I draw a line there too.

I just don't see shooting percentage for your own team, the difference between the two this season, as a goalie controlled stat.

Why would the goalie with lesser stats, and lesser difficulty in gaining those stats inspire a team to shoot better?

Confidence is a fickle thing, but it's a thing.

But the numbers are what they are. You put a lot of weight on expected goals for, and expected goals against. I put a lot of weight on results (wins and losses).

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Last season:

Markstrom: 23-21-12, .518

Vladdar.....: 14-6-5, .660

We now have over 100 games of data - when does the randomness average out?

I don't think you can quite look at the stats themselves without digging deeper into the situations.


I think Darryl rode Markstrom too hard at times. For me, I didn't feel that Vladar was the better goalie, but I did see times in which we knew that Markstrom wasn't his 100%, and that Vladar should have played instead, but Darryl still started Markstrom.


We also have to consider the quality of competition. Did Markstrom play the better teams with the more elite shooters?



How much rest did the goalies have? How many back-to-backs did Markstrom actually play? The baby issue...



I do remember that when Vladar was pressed into more starts, his play also seemed to regress. I think it is difficult to make definitive statements about the goalies and comparing their individual stats without diving deeper into it.


It is almost like you have to throw last season's stats out the window and just focus on this season. I think Huska will manage the goalies better and won't ride the starter hard 'no matter what' like Darryl seemed to do.

[442scotty]

Markstrom was doing great until he got sick. 4 goals on 16 shots versus Dallas then reverting back to old Markstrom last night with a first shot goal. Maybe they should have had Vladar play a couple of games till Markstrom was fully recovered because seriously who gets over a flu in 2/3 days.

[Enoch Root]

Vladar's opponents this year:

BUF, DET, SEA, TOR, SEA, COL, VGS

Probably higher quality, on average, than Markstrom's. (I am not doing last year, as it's too much work)

[Enoch Root]

Vladar should have started this game, after his performance against VGS

Anyway, enough on the goaltending from me