Israel declares war on Hamas

[afc wimbledon]

I'm going to call you both out (Naga and Q) like I would my kids, you are both right, wrong and obnoxious

It's not in the least bit wrong to be a Palestinian and think you had your country and future stolen by the existence of Israel, it may not be entirely true but it is entirely understandable that a Palestinian would feel that.

It is also not in the least bit wrong that no Jew feels particularly safe around Palestinians and so would never want to let go of any control or security what so ever.

Neither of you are giving a thought to why the other is angry and sad and scared, you dont need to agree with some one to at least try and think what life is like in their shoes for a few minutes before you run your yap back at them.

The irony is you two have more in common with each other than anyone else on this board, you are both living under the threat of a war that could destroy your families and yet neither of you wants to try and view the conflict from the other side

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

So they have a policy you disagree with. Am I allowed to bring up israeli policies that harm the Palestinians? Or is that not allowed in the apartheid state?

You are allowed. Obviously, both sides can produce a long list of crimes, atrocities and discriminations, that happened during this long conflict. Point is, it will bring us nowhere. This-for-that is the never ending cycle, that we want to end. Basically, Palestinians are being fed with lies, half-truths, and, yes, also truths - as long, as it fits the narrative - to keep fighting Israel, so to remain in poverty, so bosses could keep stealing aid.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Can’t you ever say, “holy crap, that is disgusting, I didn’t know that, I can see why Jews are afraid.”

There is a lot to discuss and learn, but closing your eyes doesn’t make for a fair discussion.

Can you do that towards the Palestinians?

Just yesterday israeli settlers killed a 13 year old kid. A few months ago armed settlers, with the help of the IDF attacked Huwara, killing a 37 year old palestinian man.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...stinian-pogrom

What was Smotrich's reaction? Huwara should be wiped out.

This is what zionism looks like for Palestinians. Yes, to you and others around here it's just "returning to our homeland." To Palestinians it's destruction, murder, terror and living in a constant state of fear.

Seriously, all the Palestinians want is for Israel to #### off and leave them alone. Yet, you know, God gave you Judea and Samaria.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Another point being missed by Lanny is Israel is a home to many people, not just Jewish people.

Never said it wasn't home to many people. Just pointed out that Palestinians have as much claim as anyone else. Also stated I feel sorry for the Palestinians being caught in the middle of an ideological battle and living in a quasi-apartheid state. Didn't say anything negative about Jews or Israel itself (don't want to called an antisemite for stating the obvious) and only stated some facts to counter some really bad religious based narratives.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Sure, and so are Raider fans.

Wait, you say that Jews are not even a nation? Like Putin said, that Ukrainians are not even a nation?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Wait, you say that Jews are not even a nation? Like Putin said, that Ukrainians are not even a nation?

Out of the frying pan and into the fire eh Pointman, are you are crap at picking nations or what!!

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Beninho and Nage_Waza both skipped over this, but I'm genuinely curious to hear their thoughts on it.

Indigenous people also claim that their land holds special cultural and spiritual value to them. Should they be granted their lands back? They are the original holders of the land.

Let me address that. We are arguing two points at the same time and they got mixed up.

1. Ancient ownership means nothing. Israel exists and has the right to exists because it's an established country, recognized by 193 countries of the world including 7 Arab countries. They are a legitimate democracy that is home not only to Jewish people, but also to Arabs.

2. As a separate argument, Jews are indeed an indigenous people of Palestine, and Arabs who call themselves Palestinians are not. It is a historical fact based on thousands of scientific sources from Egypt, Rome, Phoenicia, Greece and many others. The only reason why this is being brought up is to defeat the Palestinian point that "their" land was "stolen". I reiterate again, that historical ownership in itself means nothing.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Can you do that towards the Palestinians?

Just yesterday israeli settlers killed a 13 year old kid. A few months ago armed settlers, with the help of the IDF attacked Huwara, killing a 37 year old palestinian man.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...stinian-pogrom

What was Smotrich's reaction? Huwara should be wiped out.

This is what zionism looks like for Palestinians. Yes, to you and others around here it's just "returning to our homeland." To Palestinians it's destruction, murder, terror and living in a constant state of fear.

Seriously, all the Palestinians want is for Israel to #### off and leave them alone. Yet, you know, God gave you Judea and Samaria.

Have I ever made any post suggesting otherwise? If people are murdering 13 year old kids, it is terrible and disgusting.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm going to call you both out (Naga and Q) like I would my kids, you are both right, wrong and obnoxious

It's not in the least bit wrong to be a Palestinian and think you had your country and future stolen by the existence of Israel, it may not be entirely true but it is entirely understandable that a Palestinian would feel that.

It is also not in the least bit wrong that no Jew feels particularly safe around Palestinians and so would never want to let go of any control or security what so ever.

Neither of you are giving a thought to why the other is angry and sad and scared, you dont need to agree with some one to at least try and think what life is like in their shoes for a few minutes before you run your yap back at them.

The irony is you two have more in common with each other than anyone else on this board, you are both living under the threat of a war that could destroy your families and yet neither of you wants to try and view the conflict from the other side

I can accept that the jews believe their homeland is in Palestine/Israel, even though I think their claim is bogus. That's what they believe, so whatever. To each their own. 2 nations can have the same homeland. It's nothing new.

I can even accept that jews would want to immigrate there.

What I can't accept, however, is disposession, colonization and racism. You want to peacefully fly over there, buy or rent property from someone willing to sell or rent to you, live in peace with your neighbours, then sure.

You want to go partake in pogroms against Palestinians, implement a system of apartheid and rob the Palestinians of their livelihood, then you can #### right off back to New Jersey or Berlin.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Out of the frying pan and into the fire eh Pointman, are you are crap at picking nations or what!!

You can tell, my father's decision not to immigrate to USA really hurt his children for their whole life. Still, I'm more happy to be in Israel for two reasons, one very egoistical and another very moral:

1. I'm not subject to conscription into Israel army. I am not even allowed to volunteer because my Hebrew is bad I will be a liability. Furthermore two days ago I learned that I am not even allowed to donate blood because Israeli system does have my blood type. I know my blood type, but they won't risk using a wrong blood type and need it to be tested to be sure dnd have no time for that with millions donors with confirmed types available.

2. Me and my family notwithstanding, Russian invasion of Ukraine was a very wrong thing and I want nothing to do with Russia after that. Defending Israel against Hamas though is right thing in my view and I'm fine with being kind of part of it. Although I would of course preferred just a calm life.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I can accept that the jews believe their homeland is in Palestine/Israel, even though I think their claim is bogus. That's what they believe, so whatever. To each their own. 2 nations can have the same homeland. It's nothing new.

I can even accept that jews would want to immigrate there.

What I can't accept, however, is disposession, colonization and racism. You want to peacefully fly over there, buy or rent property from someone willing to sell or rent to you, live in peace with your neighbours, then sure.

You want to go partake in pogroms against Palestinians, implement a system of apartheid and rob the Palestinians of their livelihood, then you can #### right off back to New Jersey or Berlin.

It's Britain, not Palestine, that was the owner of lands. Israel was designated by the owner of lands and approved by UN. Next day Arabs declared the war to destroy Israel. That's how violence started. Yes, it became mutual very fast.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I can accept that the jews believe their homeland is in Palestine/Israel, even though I think their claim is bogus. That's what they believe, so whatever. To each their own. 2 nations can have the same homeland. It's nothing new.

I can even accept that jews would want to immigrate there.

What I can't accept, however, is disposession, colonization and racism. You want to peacefully fly over there, buy or rent property from someone willing to sell or rent to you, live in peace with your neighbours, then sure.

You want to go partake in pogroms against Palestinians, implement a system of apartheid and rob the Palestinians of their livelihood, then you can #### right off back to New Jersey or Berlin.

The two problems with this are first of all they dont have to they are utterly in control so you have to accept that regardless of any legal moral or historical claim, Israel's ability to kill any Palestinian that complains trumps any other argument, sucks but its true.

Second the idea that Israeli's are basically all from somewhere else and can go back there stopped being true sometime in the late 1960's, 73% of Israeli's were born in Israel, many are thrid generation Israeli and have never known anywhere else as home, have no where else to go nor any intention of leaving, they are as connected to that land as any Palestinian emotionally or otherwise

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Never said it wasn't home to many people. Just pointed out that Palestinians have as much claim as anyone else. Also stated I feel sorry for the Palestinians being caught in the middle of an ideological battle and living in a quasi-apartheid state. Didn't say anything negative about Jews or Israel itself (don't want to called an antisemite for stating the obvious) and only stated some facts to counter some really bad religious based narratives.

Is it ideological battle? Or is it a money-stealing scheme?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The two problems with this are first of all they dont have to they are utterly in control so you have to accept that regardless of any legal moral or historical claim, Israel's ability to kill any Palestinian that complains trumps any other argument, sucks but its true.

Second the idea that Israeli's are basically all from somewhere else and can go back there stopped being true sometime in the late 1960's, 73% of Israeli's were born in Israel, many are thrid generation Israeli and have never known anywhere else as home, have no where else to go nor any intention of leaving, they are as connected to that land as any Palestinian emotionally or otherwise

I understand, but that's where armed resistance like Hamas comes from. Nobody wants that, but unfortunately for colonizing powers, people don't usually like being treated like ####.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

It's Britain, not Palestine, that was the owner of lands. Israel was designated by the owner of lands and approved by UN. Next day Arabs declared the war to destroy Israel. That's how violence started. Yes, it became mutual very fast.

Hey don't be blaming us now, we got it from some Turkish geezer

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I understand, but that's where armed resistance like Hamas comes from. Nobody wants that, but unfortunately for colonizing powers, people don't usually like being treated like ####.

Oh I understand that too but most of the world has to suck that up, if you have the ability, strength to win the fight go ahead, if you dont you have to accept and make the best of things, it's not a question of right or wrong, just practicality

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Can you do that towards the Palestinians?

Just yesterday israeli settlers killed a 13 year old kid. A few months ago armed settlers, with the help of the IDF attacked Huwara, killing a 37 year old palestinian man.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...stinian-pogrom

What was Smotrich's reaction? Huwara should be wiped out.

This is what zionism looks like for Palestinians. Yes, to you and others around here it's just "returning to our homeland." To Palestinians it's destruction, murder, terror and living in a constant state of fear.

Seriously, all the Palestinians want is for Israel to #### off and leave them alone. Yet, you know, God gave you Judea and Samaria.

Edited: he clarified the comments soon after. Still, in your post you left out that what triggered those comments was shooting of two Israeli brothers, aged 19 and 21, by Palestinians. You made it look like those comments cdme after Israeli killed a Palestinian, while it was the other way around.


https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotri...er-apologizes/

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Edited: he clarified the remarks soon after


https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotri...er-apologizes/

In your original post, you immediately dismissed this as propaganda breeding hate, not because you had evidence of it being propaganda, but because you found the wrong link and assumed it was propaganda immediately. Perhaps in rushing to dismiss everything, you could take a longer pause and listen?

His clarification wasn’t even a particularly comforting one:

He insisted that the thought of indiscriminately eradicating the entire town never crossed his mind, claiming he figured the most extreme interpretation of his words would be to claim he called for demolishing every Palestinian home alongside Huwara’s main highway in order to prevent future attacks, like the shooting that took the lives of the two Israeli brothers last week. In such cases, “there’s no harm to human life, only to property,” he said, ostensibly justifying such a proposal.

[transplant99]

Israeli Defense Force spokesman:

"Israel is targeting those who filmed and broadcast Hamas's murderous invasion of souther Israel on Saturday morning.

Overnight, the military killed Mustafa Shahin, a Hamas operative the IDF identified from footage online."

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

In your original post, you immediately dismissed this as propaganda breeding hate, not because you had evidence of it being propaganda, but because you found the wrong link and assumed it was propaganda immediately. Perhaps in rushing to dismiss everything, you could take a longer pause and listen?

His clarification wasn’t even a particularly comforting one:

It's because of the way Q put it. He opened the post with a sentence about recent murder, and then goes on about what happened "some months ago". If you read Q's post again, he talks about both events and then says "what was Smotrich's reaction"? This assumed his reaction to both events, presumably expressed after the latest of them was done.

It was not the case though. Q made it look like Smotrich's comments were after killing of 13 years old, while in reality they were after first incident and have nothing to do with killing of 13-years old kid. It was clearly a manipulative post by Q, rather than me finding the wrong link.

So I initially read what Smotrich said about recent events in town. Then I looked at the date of Al Jazeera article and realized that Q is referring to Smotrich's comments that happen last winter. So I had to redo my entire post, although the point of propaganda still stands. The narrative about the events is drastically different in those articles.