Israel declares war on Hamas

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Here's what I said:


IMO, if you were there, and got to witness everything, you wouldn't be half as vocal in trying to justify what happened. Don't try to spin this into me wishing you were killed. Hell if the Palestinians you're describing were as warm, cuddly, and innocent as you're trying to pretend you might even have a good time.

I bet you're one of those people that's asking what did the Jews do to provoke Hitler instead of simply acknowledging that such acts should not be allowed ever again.

The last paragraph is disgusting and based on nothing. It is sad people descend into such baseless accusations like that because people don’t blindly support the same positions.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Spurs

The last paragraph is disgusting and based on nothing. It is sad people descend into such baseless accusations like that because people don’t blindly support the same positions.

Get off your high horse. I'm surprised you don't see the parallel between that and blaming Israel for everything that happened.

[blankall]

This thread is totally off the rails right now.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

None of this makes it remotely okay to tell someone you're interacting with that you want them to go do something that you imply would lead to them being grievously hurt or killed. You've gone straight off the deep end here, first by accusing someone of antisemitism for saying that criticism of Israeli policy shouldn't be conflated with antisemitism, and then by doing exactly what Psycnet did earlier with the "just admit it, you're motivated by hatred" garbage.

I was thinking about a page ago that despite a few descents into the muck this thread had actually held together better than I would have expected, but I guess I called that putt too early.

My post says it isn't OK and I didn't make any threats of the sort. That I assume was someone else?

Criticism is fine. Inserting false information is bad. Pretty simple. And that aligns with the definition of anti-Semitism. I did not step outside of that boundary. If I poorly wrote that, it wasn't my intent, but on re-reading, seems I wrote what I meant.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

And many are not even Palestinians, they are Arab politicians, businessmen, religious powers, and state level actors. It's awful to be a civilian caught in the middle. In a previous job, I would speak to the caretaker who was an middle eastern refugee and he described so much hardship from his country being in the middle of so many powers. The civilians suffer the most and he was fortunate to escape.

Just don't escape your country, come to Canada, and then honk and chant on Canadian streets in support of terrorist organizations and violence.

There is something weirdly dense about Palestinians in Canada complaining about Israel being a colonial power when they are now enthusiastic citizens of a colonial power and live on stolen land themselves and have no intention of giving their house and business to some random native family any more than an Israeli does, I mean that takes some kind of front frankly

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

And now who is being racist?

Not all Jews are white. The majority in Israel right now are Mizarachi - with origins in the Middle East (Yemen, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Egypt) and Mediterranean (Spain, Portugal). As a matter of fact, a lot of the recent internal strife has been about the divide between the majority Miazrachi community and the Ashkenazim community.

Of course let's no forget the Jews of Ethiopian origin, or Indian origin (Bene Menashe).

And again with the apartheid slur. Amnesty International opted to change the definition of the word to suit their accusation rather than accept that it was wrong. All Israeli citizens have the same rights and access to services and rule of law same as Canadian citizens here. Palestinians are not barred from professions (Doctor, Lawyer, etc), not barred from owning land or selling that land to whomever they want, there are no Palestinian only beaches, arenas, parks. I wonder what Israeli Supreme Court Justices Khaled Kabub and Abdel Rahman Zuabi(temporarily) would say to that.

Yes, life in Judea and Samaria is different. The Palestinians there are governed by the P.A. and subject to P.A. law in area A, while subject to Israeli Military law in areas B & C.

Let's talk about apartheid - the concept of racial segregation enshrined in law. Is it apartheid to ban a group from professions and bar them from owning land? It is. Yet you don't seem to upset about Lebanon doing this to the Palestinians there. Is it apartheid to ban the sale of your property to another identifiable group on pain of death? It is. Yet that law is on PA books. It seems apartheid is bad EXCEPT when is comes to the Jews.

You can't be that obtuse, can you?

The fact you refer to the West Bank as "Judea and Samaria" tells me all I need to know. Even if we accept the fact that Palestinian citizens of Israel are treated equally to Jews (they're not) the apartheid exists in the West Bank.

As the pro israel side on here loves to keep repeating "educate yourself."

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Get off your high horse. I'm surprised you don't see the parallel between that and blaming Israel for everything that happened.

Where did he blame Israel for everything that happened?

And to be honest no I don’t think if he did that there is a parallel. There is no high horse accusing someone of supporting the holocaust based on nothing us pretty gross in my view.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by blankall

This thread is totally off the rails right now.

Yep it needs to be locked or heavily moderated.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Here's what I said:


IMO, if you were there, and got to witness everything, you wouldn't be half as vocal in trying to justify what happened. Don't try to spin this into me wishing you were killed. Hell if the Palestinians you're describing were as warm, cuddly, and innocent as you're trying to pretend you might even have a good time.

I bet you're one of those people that's asking what did the Jews do to provoke Hitler instead of simply acknowledging that such acts should not be allowed ever again.

I wouldn’t wish “experiencing a terrorist attack firsthand” on my worst enemy. If you think that’s a remotely OK thing to do under any circumstance, especially given what the people who experienced this terrorist attack went through (many of them dead or injured) then you are everything you hate.

I won’t even justify the rest with a response beyond the fact that I’m embarrassed for you and Naga resorting to stuff like this.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by _Q_

But we all know, white people don't just simply immigrate and become a minority in non white lands. They colonize, exploit and implement apartheid.

It's not your fault that you have a very west centric education, but it is your problem. You might be surprised at what the rest of the world has been up to, these last 1000 years.

This comment is pretty racist, and if you're white, self hating. I think it more likely you are trying to rile people up, so that they will react badly, and weaken their own position.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Yep it needs to be locked or heavily moderated.

1000x this

[Moderator]

Okay everybody, deep breaths.

We understand, and knew, this was going to be a very emotional topic. Tough not to be.

But this thread is really getting out of control. Specifically the insults and aggressive comments. It would be nice if posters could self-moderate and stop themselves but apparently some cannot. We don't want to close this thread. But maybe a timeout for a bit so everyone can compose themselves is appropriate right now. Watch some hockey, go for a walk, whatever. Just take a breath.

This is a huge story right now. We want people to be able to discuss it, even if they strongly disagree. But we can't have this thread spiral out of control. So when it's opened again and people continue to insult or use aggressive tones towards one another do not be surprised if you get a ban for a day or two, or more. Just discuss the topic without the other garbage.

Thank you.

[Moderator]

Okay everybody, let's try this again.

Please just discuss this important topic respectfully. Thanks.

[Doctorfever]

Educate me please.
So Palestinians are essentially cut off from supply routes and trapped. Supplies are already running low (apparently). Why would Hamas have put themselves in this position? Couldn’t they have seen this coming, or are they expecting help from other countries?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Moderator

Please just discuss this important topic respectfully. Thanks.

It would help if people would recognize that nothing you post in this thread is in any way going to change the situation on the ground or materially impact anything at all in the world, except possibly the day of the people you're interacting with.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Educate me please.
So Palestinians are essentially cut off from supply routes and trapped. Supplies are already running low (apparently). Why would Hamas have put themselves in this position? Couldn’t they have seen this coming, or are they expecting help from other countries?

It's hard to say. Could be:

1. Hamas is out of touch with reality. They actually think they can win. They believe the fanatical rhetoric they spew about holy wars.
2. Hamas doesn't think things through.
3. Hamas is worried about their future and is desperately holding onto power.
4. Hamas has actually, in the past, garnered all sorts of sympathy from their tactics. Attack Israel until it reacts, hide your military infrastructure amongst civilians, depict Israel as the bad guy when your civilians eventually start to die. It's their game plan.
5. These has a lot to do with geopolitics and outside forcing influencing Hamas. The Russians are stirring up crap everywhere. The Russians and Iranians both dread an Israeli/Saudi peace deal, which, about a week ago, seemed imminent.

Probably a combination of the above.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's hard to say. Could be:
5. These has a lot to do with geopolitics and outside forcing influencing Hamas. The Russians are stirring up crap everywhere. The Russians and Iranians both dread an Israeli/Saudi peace deal, which, about a week ago, seemed imminent.

Probably a combination of the above.

For the Russian angle, they've already stated their goal was to cause as many conflicts as possible in Africa and now the Middle East, to spread out Western support and reduce the amount of arms going into Ukraine. This is why you've seen the spike in the number of coups in Africa supported by Wagner, and I would not be surprised at all if Russia had nudged Hamas to do this via Iran in exchange for all the drones Iran provided. Time will tell if this was correct, Russia is currently full of people leaking info out.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

I have learned a great deal from certain posters about the region and the geopolitics, that I am grateful for. I have also learned that certain tribes really hate each other and that's unfortunate. I was away from civilization for the last week and was back in the realm of media on Tuesday morning, I unexpectedly saw some horrific videos of the event at the Music Festival for Peace and was very angry.

I messaged a good friend who told me that this was to be expected given the way US foreign policy has influenced the areas, I just can't comprehend the lack of humanity, to not even preface their comments with condemnation of the acts of the terrorists. To be fair, they had probably had time to process what it was that I had just seen.

In this thread, I have read glimmers of understanding between the most vocal for both sides. Hopefully, the discourse can remain civil, we can all benefit from knowing exactly who and what led up to this as well as understanding the required response for such acts.

**My apologies I just had to write something, a week of isolation to be reading some of the comments here was really disheartening and not what people would be like if they were in a room together, that is all.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Educate me please.
So Palestinians are essentially cut off from supply routes and trapped. Supplies are already running low (apparently). Why would Hamas have put themselves in this position? Couldn’t they have seen this coming, or are they expecting help from other countries?

Hamas is probably mostly made up of young men who know nothing other than life in Gaza. I'd have to imagine that's pretty hopeless, not many jobs, constant reliance on international aid, and really zero control of their own destiny. Years of seathing anger and hatred looks to have pushed them beyond the point of rational decisions, and they have gone all in on this hand. That, and foreign interference from places like Iran may have propelled this action as well.


The fact that none of us can really see a way out of this might give some insight into their hopelessness. If you see no prospect for a future, a family, and life, you probably tend to care less about the repercussions of your actions. You are the walking dead already.

[Bigtime]

As of 6min ago, and possibly being accompanied with paragliders:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712127993361887381