Flames announce 23/24 opening day roster

[Ford Prefect]

Wolf’s development at 22 is ahead of the curve for goalies. That’s terrific. Goalies take longer to develop though so having the luxury of bringing him along slowly and overcooking him a bit is just fine. I’m more comfortable with that approach than what Buffalo is doing with Levi, who is also 22. Buffalo could ruin a brilliant goalie prospect by throwing him to the wolves before he’s ready. I’d rather overcook Wolf a little than rush his development and risk ruining him. He’s the Flames most important prospect imo. I want them to get his development right.

[CliffFletcher]

Most teams have 0-2 rookies in the opening night lineup. Only teams undergoing down-to-the-studs rebuilds have even 3 or 4. Projected Flames lineups that featured 4+ rookies posted here during the off-season were never plausible.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Most teams have 0-2 rookies in the opening night lineup. Only teams undergoing down-to-the-studs rebuilds have even 3 or 4. Projected Flames lineups that featured 4+ rookies posted here during the off-season were never plausible.

I thought most people wanted a younger and faster team not all rookie lineup.

That was never going to happen.

We got rookies, younger, and faster whats not to like?

The names don't look familiar yet because they are new, once they do make some noise everyone will be happy.

[Teroy]

It's interesting to me how many were calling for Vladar to play instead of Markstrom last year and now they don't want him. If the Flames move Vladar, they better hope that Markstrom doesn't lay an egg and Wolf lives up to their expectations. Me, I'm still in the Vladar camp.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Teroy

It's interesting to me how many were calling for Vladar to play instead of Markstrom last year and now they don't want him. If the Flames move Vladar, they better hope that Markstrom doesn't lay an egg and Wolf lives up to their expectations. Me, I'm still in the Vladar camp.

It's not that people don't want Vladar, they (we) just want Wolf and nobody's taking Markstrom from us anytime soon... so Vladar is the odd man out.

I think most would rather have Wolf and Vladar (and maybe another F up front plus a bit of cap space) instead of Markstrom and Wolf or Markstrom and Vladar.

[Teroy]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

It's not that people don't want Vladar, they (we) just want Wolf and nobody's taking Markstrom from us anytime soon... so Vladar is the odd man out.

I think most would rather have Wolf and Vladar (and maybe another F up front plus a bit of cap space) instead of Markstrom and Wolf or Markstrom and Vladar.

I agree, I'd like Vladar and Wolf. But if they move Vladar and the other two (Marks & Wolf) don't get it done, then what?

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Buff

I feel like some people think Wolf should just be given the #1 job.

No, there's jus tlots of people who feel he has earned it due to being the goalie of the year twice in a row and the MVP of the entire AHL.

I know you guys were sick of me in the Wolf thread, but I just can't continue to wrap my head around how a team with mediocre at best goaltending has the best goalie prospect in the league and sends him down because they want to maximize the asset management of Dan Vladar?!?!?!?!?!

Sure getting reps is important and he can get those in the AHL. But challenging yourself is also important. Being shown your organization believes in you is important. Getting rewarded with those fat NHL paychecks is important. Not riding the bus in the AHL is important. Getting a chance to succeed is important.

But out of all of those things, all you guys can ever focus on is the getting reps. Well he can get some reps in mens league at night but that would also be a giant waste of his time.

Yet here we have all this hyperbole about how fans have unrealistic expectations. Did the guy have a great camp? No. But no one else did. And he has shown for years that he can excel at any situation.

I don't see how you guys as a fan base can mock the Oilers and Canucks and not be absolutely incensed at your own organization for this poor decision.

Last year it was all about him getting games. He got a single game to finish the season. Off season was all about how they just needed time to move Vladar. Yet here we are, opening night and your best prospect at the most important position is watching on TV.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dobbles

No, there's jus tlots of people who feel he has earned it due to being the goalie of the year twice in a row and the MVP of the entire AHL.

Well, that is just not how anything works. As I said above, the only way Wolf was starting the season on the Flames bench was by having the best camp of his life, and that did not happen.

I know you guys were sick of me in the Wolf thread, but I just can't continue to wrap my head around how a team with mediocre at best goaltending has the best goalie prospect in the league and sends him down because they want to maximize the asset management of Dan Vladar?!?!?!?!?!

Your problem is that you are very badly underrating the Flames goaltending on the basis of one abysmal season. Both Vladar and Markstrom are clearly better than they played last year.

Sure getting reps is important and he can get those in the AHL. But challenging yourself is also important. Being shown your organization believes in you is important. Getting rewarded with those fat NHL paychecks is important. Not riding the bus in the AHL is important. Getting a chance to succeed is important.

· A 22-year-old goalie playing behind a weaker team will still have plenty of opportunities to "challenge himself."
· Not making the opening-night roster does not correlate to the team's long-term feelings about Dustin Wolf, and he would be the first to tell you that.
· NHL paycheques are important, but rookie, waiver-eligible players are almost certainly better informed than you are about the realities of their situation with the team.
· LOL @ "riding the bus in the AHL," and "getting a chance to succeed."

But out of all of those things, all you guys can ever focus on is the getting reps. Well he can get some reps in mens league at night but that would also be a giant waste of his time.

Wrong. People have also been clearly focused on Wolf's waiver eligibility, his camp performance and the fact that he is still only 22-years-old as perfectly viable reasons for why he will start the season in the AHL.

Yet here we have all this hyperbole about how fans have unrealistic expectations. Did the guy have a great camp? No. But no one else did. And he has shown for years that he can excel at any situation.

Fans DO have unrealistic expectations, which is why we are still talking about this. And, while Wolf's camp was not great, importantly, he wasn't any better than either of the two NHL goalies. He CERTAINLY did not earn the spot for opening night based on his performance, and neither of the other two lost theirs because of theirs.

I don't see how you guys as a fan base can mock the Oilers and Canucks and not be absolutely incensed at your own organization for this poor decision.

It is easy to mock the Oilers and the Canucks because they are no good, and their fans are stupid morons. This was in no way a "poor decision"—on the contrary, taking advantage of their LAST CHANCE to maximise Wolf's waiver ineligibility is actually a very astute move for the team, especially since he has not forced his way on to the roster yet.

Last year it was all about him getting games. He got a single game to finish the season. Off season was all about how they just needed time to move Vladar. Yet here we are, opening night and your best prospect at the most important position is watching on TV.

People who were "all about him getting games" were probably just as unrealistic about Wolf as you clearly are. While it may have been advantageous to move Vladar in the offseason, it didn't make any sense unless the return was well above-market. Those deals didn't happen, so by far the best recourse is to have a healthy NHL duo ready at the start of the season, with a rookie NHL goalie that can be moved back-and-forth with impunity between club rosters who will DEFINITELY get his opportunities to play this year. And then, even if Wolf only plays a handful of games in 2023–24, he is guaranteed to be starting with the Flames next year. That has ALWAYS been the timetable; posters who saw it differently were deluding themselves.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dobbles

No, there's jus tlots of people who feel he has earned it due to being the goalie of the year twice in a row and the MVP of the entire AHL.

You don't give a guy the starter's job because he looks great against AHL shooters. You give him the starter's job if he is your best goalie.

In head-to-head competition against Markstrom and Vladar in camp, Wolf didn't prove that he was the best goalie. They can't carry three goalies on the roster, so they had to send one down, and he's the only one who wouldn't have to go through waivers. End of story.

[OutOfTheCube]

Very Flames to grab some last minute waiver-wire goober like Greer to do nothing and plug up a roster spot all season.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You don't give a guy the starter's job because he looks great against AHL shooters. You give him the starter's job if he is your best goalie.

In head-to-head competition against Markstrom and Vladar in camp, Wolf didn't prove that he was the best goalie. They can't carry three goalies on the roster, so they had to send one down, and he's the only one who wouldn't have to go through waivers. End of story.

Well, that, and the fact that he will benefit more from AHL starts than Markstrom or Vladar would if they were sent down, and the fact that sending a goaltender down got them as close as possible to the cap with Kylington on LTIR. There’s much more to management than simply placing the players with the most upside on the roster, regardless of development plans and contract status. And the team will take advantage of his waiver-free status to move him up and down to get him the number of starts they want him to have for his ongoing progression.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You don't give a guy the starter's job because he looks great against AHL shooters. You give him the starter's job if he is your best goalie.

In head-to-head competition against Markstrom and Vladar in camp, Wolf didn't prove that he was the best goalie. They can't carry three goalies on the roster, so they had to send one down, and he's the only one who wouldn't have to go through waivers. End of story.

Not end of story, this is just another example in a long line of "have it both ways" for our organization and it's most stalwart defenders when they're acting dumb about obvious decisions. You can't say his preseason wasn't impressive so he doesn't get the chance while simultaneously saying that 1.5 years of Markstrom being absolutely one of the worst goalies in the whole league (statistically and visually) is not enough sample size to judge what he will look like this coming season.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Very Flames to grab some last minute waiver-wire goober like Greer to do nothing and plug up a roster spot all season.

He will warm the pine or be waived and sent down whenever another player proves themselves a better fit for the spot. He is fully developed and was acquired at no cost, so they lose nothing if he sits or is claimed off waivers.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Well, that is just not how anything works. As I said above, the only way Wolf was starting the season on the Flames bench was by having the best camp of his life, and that did not happen.


Your problem is that you are very badly underrating the Flames goaltending on the basis of one abysmal season. Both Vladar and Markstrom are clearly better than they played last year.


· A 22-year-old goalie playing behind a weaker team will still have plenty of opportunities to "challenge himself."
· Not making the opening-night roster does not correlate to the team's long-term feelings about Dustin Wolf, and he would be the first to tell you that.
· NHL paycheques are important, but rookie, waiver-eligible players are almost certainly better informed than you are about the realities of their situation with the team.
· LOL @ "riding the bus in the AHL," and "getting a chance to succeed."


Wrong. People have also been clearly focused on Wolf's waiver eligibility, his camp performance and the fact that he is still only 22-years-old as perfectly viable reasons for why he will start the season in the AHL.


Fans DO have unrealistic expectations, which is why we are still talking about this. And, while Wolf's camp was not great, importantly, he wasn't any better than either of the two NHL goalies. He CERTAINLY did not earn the spot for opening night based on his performance, and neither of the other two lost theirs because of theirs.

[/I]
It is easy to mock the Oilers and the Canucks because they are no good, and their fans are stupid morons. This was in no way a "poor decision"—on the contrary, taking advantage of their LAST CHANCE to maximise Wolf's waiver ineligibility is actually a very astute move for the team, especially since he has not forced his way on to the roster yet.


People who were "all about him getting games" were probably just as unrealistic about Wolf as you clearly are. While it may have been advantageous to move Vladar in the offseason, it didn't make any sense unless the return was well above-market. Those deals didn't happen, so by far the best recourse is to have a healthy NHL duo ready at the start of the season, with a rookie NHL goalie that can be moved back-and-forth with impunity between club rosters who will DEFINITELY get his opportunities to play this year. And then, even if Wolf only plays a handful of games in 2023–24, he is guaranteed to be starting with the Flames next year. That has ALWAYS been the timetable; posters who saw it differently were deluding themselves.

Absolutely nailed it on all points. Thanks for saving me from saying all of the same things in a less clear way.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Not end of story, this is just another example in a long line of "have it both ways" for our organization and it's most stalwart defenders when they're acting dumb about obvious decisions.

Your schtick, which is extremely tired, is to assume that everything the organization does is wrong, and then fish around for reasons that will support your predetermined conclusion. So of course you were going to say this, right or wrong. It means nothing.

You can't say his preseason wasn't impressive so he doesn't get the chance while simultaneously saying that 1.5 years of Markstrom being absolutely one of the worst goalies in the whole league (statistically and visually) is not enough sample size to judge what he will look like this coming season.

Wolf hasn't shown that he is better right now than Markstrom and Vladar. He didn't get better results than they did in the games they've played.

You have said absolutely nothing to counter the points I made. All you have is noise about ‘obvious decisions’. Well, the obvious decision here is to send down the guy who's least experienced and still waiver-eligible, unless he forces your hand. Every single team in the NHL would have done the same, in any single year of the league's history. That didn't happen because every single NHL manager and coach in the last 106 years was dumber than you. It happened because it's the correct thing to do.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

You can't say his preseason wasn't impressive so he doesn't get the chance while simultaneously saying that 1.5 years of Markstrom being absolutely one of the worst goalies in the whole league (statistically and visually) is not enough sample size to judge what he will look like this coming season.

HE'S NOT.

He is saying that head-to-head IN CAMP Wolf did not play Markstrom out of a job, because he didn't. I hope I do not need to explain to you the manifest problem with gauging any of the Flames's players expected performance on the sole basis of their career worst single-season results.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Still not going to say Markstrom cost us the entire season he wasn't great but he wasn't the reason we missed the playoffs.

It's obvious that the new coach was on the staff saw something wrong in how we defended allowing grade a chances usually as the first shot on net.

Markstrom can be better yes he let him some bad goals but the Flames stunk at defending in their own zone a lot.

[dobbles]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Your problem is that you are very badly underrating the Flames goaltending on the basis of one abysmal season. Both Vladar and Markstrom are clearly better than they played last year.

I'm not going to respond point by point like you did as you are being awfully condescending, but I did want to reply to this point specifically. What exactly makes you think Vladar is better than last year? Unlike Wolf, his minor career was mediocre at best. He spent nearly as long in the ECHL as he did in the AHL. While his 21-22 campaign numbers were decent, that feels more like the outlier than the norm. That team was solid all around and he was a solid half goal and 15 percentage points behind Markstroms strong numbers.

Originally Posted by Jay Random

You don't give a guy the starter's job because he looks great against AHL shooters. You give him the starter's job if he is your best goalie.

In head-to-head competition against Markstrom and Vladar in camp, Wolf didn't prove that he was the best goalie. They can't carry three goalies on the roster, so they had to send one down, and he's the only one who wouldn't have to go through waivers. End of story.

I'm not advocating giving the starting job based on AHL shooters. I am saying the sample size of 2 lights out seasons in NHLs best developmental league is a much better measure than a couple of preseason games. Honestly, the preseason is kind of an awful way to make roster decisions. But thats for another day. Also, I am not necessarily advocating Wolf be the starter. I just think it is a waste of time burying him in the AHL against inferior competition.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by OutOfTheCube

Very Flames to grab some last minute waiver-wire goober like Greer to do nothing and plug up a roster spot all season.

was good enough to play the majority of the games with the Bruins last season...not good enough for the Flames

got it

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by dino7c

was good enough to play the majority of the games with the Bruins last season...not good enough for the Flames

got it

Exactly. I mean, how good were the Bruins last year?