How much damage did Covid do?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Not really talking directly about COVID.

You gotta be pretty ignorant (jayswin level, though that is hard to accomplish) to not see how much the last 3 years has hurt middle / lower level people. Just here in Canada we are heading into a full on crisis on many levels. Housing, immigration, jobs, health care, etc, etc.

Not that hard to understand how the system was manipulated to let the rich make off like bandits while others are now suffering.

You're just realizing now how modern capitalism works?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I’m just having a hard time figuring out how you’re only associating this with COVID. It’s been an ongoing issue for about a half century now.

Because it accelerated during COVID.

Are you living under a rock, or have you not realized housing, healthcare, price of food, overall inflation etc all got worse the last 3 years?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

You're just realizing now how modern capitalism works?

Oh is that what you're calling it?

Government in bed with big business resulting in trillions of dollars worth of taxpayer money flowing into the hands of a few and we call that 'modern capitalism.'

Interesting spin on things I guess.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Azure

Because it accelerated during COVID.

Are you living under a rock, or have you not realized housing, healthcare, price of food, overall inflation etc all got worse the last 3 years?

Where I live is nobody’s business but my own thank you very much. Based on historical data it was getting worse one way or another, yes COVID made it worse but to act as though it was the only factor is more than a little misleading.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh is that what you're calling it?

Government in bed with big business resulting in trillions of dollars worth of taxpayer money flowing into the hands of a few and we call that 'modern capitalism.'

Interesting spin on things I guess.

Uhhh, yeah? Are you serious? I honestly can't tell. I hope you're not so naive to think that governments being basically bought by moneyed interests is some new thing. Why do you think rich people spend billions of dollars on campaign contributions and lobbying?

Do you think it's an accident that in the 30 years before COVID that the wealth of the top 0.1% in the US (basically people worth $50M+) increased at a rate that's about 3x as fast as the bottom 90%? Basically our entire economic system is designed to favor those with capital and to funnel wealth to them. That naturally leads to those with less capital (middle and working classes) falling behind. Asset prices get driven up and governments run huge deficits to keep tax rates artificially low. Then when that becomes untenable, governments enact austerity policies that primarily hurt the working class.

[the-rasta-masta]

I own a small business in the fitness field. Before the pandemic I had 7 years of great success and it seemed like the sky was the limit, I had made it. Pandemic hit and created 3+ years of insane stress that extremely challenged my mental health and relationships with wife, children, and family. The business has survived and looks to be finally returning to pre-pandemic levels heading into this upcoming winter. However, the government sponsored debt that the business had to take on to survive was suffocating any chance of remaining profitable, resulting in a restructuring which has left myself and the other original owner dealing with personal bankruptcy/consumer proposal, and a new third party owning the business, with us now as employees. Had to go down this route in order to keep the business going and maintain employment for 150+ employees, and maintain the community/legacy that we had built. I believe long term we may be granted some portion of ownership back, but that's out of my control.

More important, and more impactful, was the loss of my father during the pandemic. He was sick with idiopathic lung disease prior the pandemic (idiopathic means there's no direct cause they can determine, he didn't smoke as an example), and so we had to be super careful about getting together throughout that time. He died in December 2021 as his disease progressed, due to natural causes, but I feel cheated out of a lot of time with him in that final year and half due to staying away trying to prevent him from getting sicker. This was inevitable with or without COVID, IMO, but that time lost leads to questioning and guilt if it was all worth it. My Mom had never paid a bill in her life and was very sheltered by my Dad, and the complex estate was an added stress, and continues to be even in just the minimal aspect of managing her monthly finances.

COVID took a lot out of me on a career and personal level, and actually rocked my life to the point where I am basically completely starting over in my mid 30s. I was making $250k a year for a few years prior and thought I'd found the gold nugget in terms of work/life balance, and as mentioned am now faced with starting fresh with no credit for a few years.

But, I'm starting to feel happy again by focussing on simple things and recognizing the many things I am lucky to have. I feel bad even posting this because it sounds like boohoo, poor me, etc... But ya... COVID was an interesting wrinkle that certainly rocked me to my core. Not the same person as before.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Uhhh, yeah? Are you serious? I honestly can't tell. I hope you're not so naive to think that governments being basically bought by moneyed interests is some new thing. Why do you think rich people spend billions of dollars on campaign contributions and lobbying?

Do you think it's an accident that in the 30 years before COVID that the wealth of the top 0.1% in the US (basically people worth $50M+) increased at a rate that's about 3x as fast as the bottom 90%? Basically our entire economic system is designed to favor those with capital and to funnel wealth to them. That naturally leads to those with less capital (middle and working classes) falling behind. Asset prices get driven up and governments run huge deficits to keep tax rates artificially low. Then when that becomes untenable, governments enact austerity policies that primarily hurt the working class.

I agree that there is a serious wealth gap in NA, which should be addressed, and preventing loopholes and increasing taxes on the super wealthy is probably required. However, most people have to save a fair amount of capital these days just to have a decent retirement. And being able to grow that capital along the way, without taking on too much risk, is important.

I believe, under the Liberals, we have become far too dependent on our Government to solve all our problems. IMO we have to find ways to get our Country back to work by taking advantage of what we have been blessed with.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Uhhh, yeah? Are you serious?

Isn't it hilarious when you essentially agree with someone and they are so hell-bent at arguing that they go off on you in response?

[timun]

Eat the rich?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I agree that there is a serious wealth gap in NA, which should be addressed, and preventing loopholes and increasing taxes on the super wealthy is probably required. However, most people have to save a fair amount of capital these days just to have a decent retirement. And being able to grow that capital along the way, without taking on too much risk, is important.

I believe, under the Liberals, we have become far too dependent on our Government to solve all our problems. IMO we have to find ways to get our Country back to work by taking advantage of what we have been blessed with.

Blessed with is a pretty rose coloured way of saying dispossessed from Indigenous peoples.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I agree that there is a serious wealth gap in NA, which should be addressed, and preventing loopholes and increasing taxes on the super wealthy is probably required. However, most people have to save a fair amount of capital these days just to have a decent retirement. And being able to grow that capital along the way, without taking on too much risk, is important.

I believe, under the Liberals, we have become far too dependent on our Government to solve all our problems. IMO we have to find ways to get our Country back to work by taking advantage of what we have been blessed with.

Sure, but you can encourage working and middle class people to build wealth without simultaneously creating a situation where the ultra wealthy are able to use those same rules to more effectively hoard assets. TFSAs (introduced by the Harper government) are a good example of that. Everyone gets the same relatively modest contribution limit every year, and it allows people to build wealth tax free. So that's generally good policy. It does have its drawbacks, but in general it helps the average person.

But there are so many other things that are designed simply to send money up the food chain and the end result is significant inequality. From WWII until 1980, basically everyone's income went up at a similar rate (about 100-120% in inflation-adjusted terms). So if the executive's wage went up by 100%, so did the janitor's, leading to significant shared prosperity.

But starting in 1980, that completely changed. From 1980 to now, the median income only increased by about 20% in inflation-adjusted terms, and for lower income people it was more like 17-18%. But for the 95th percentile? It went up about 75-80% over the same time period.

What happened to change that? Neoliberalism and Reaganism. They lowered taxes on the rich significantly (funded by large deficits), started gutting things that benefited the working and middle classes (35% of private sector workers had a pension in 1980 vs. 15% today), and introduced rules to benefit those with capital (for instance, stock buybacks were illegal prior to 1982, now they're done all the time).

So the last 40 years have significantly eroded the buying power of the average person relative to the economic gains we've seen, all in order to make the rich richer. It's not a surprise that populist clowns are getting more popular, but the current crop are just going to exacerbate the issue. Trump's tax cuts and COVID stimulus were massive drivers of wealth gains for the ultra wealthy at the expense of regular people and public finances.

[Monahammer]

Italy just announced a special one time assessment on all of it's banks to recoup the profit from rising interest. They say they're going to use the proceeds to tackle housing/rent.

Perhaps we should be considering a one time assessment on all non-smes nationally.

[Scrambler]

Well, considering I work in the travel industry, had my absolute best years in that career 2010-2019 (same timeframe I bought a house, got married, had kids, etc) and 2020 was shaping up on the books to be the best year on record... That all crashed and burned and then I went into depression and despair (depression that affected me in my teens and 20's which I had 'successfully' buried in my 30's, re-emerged and worse than ever).

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Italy just announced a special one time assessment on all of it's banks to recoup the profit from rising interest. They say they're going to use the proceeds to tackle housing/rent.

Perhaps we should be considering a one time assessment on all non-smes nationally.

Absolutely not. The thing with these windfall taxes is that when times are tough in those sectors, the government isn't stepping in. Look no further than energy. The government wasn't there in 2015 to provide assistance. In 2020 when the prices got slaughtered there was no assistance offered. So why should the government hammer them with taxes now that they've survived?

And really, is Italy an economy thag we should be modelling ourselves after? That seems like a poor choice.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Slava

Absolutely not. The thing with these windfall taxes is that when times are tough in those sectors, the government isn't stepping in. Look no further than energy. The government wasn't there in 2015 to provide assistance. In 2020 when the prices got slaughtered there was no assistance offered. So why should the government hammer them with taxes now that they've survived?

And really, is Italy an economy thag we should be modelling ourselves after? That seems like a poor choice.

Pretty much every business could get Covid bailouts, and the auto sector gets bailed out every decade or so, along with Bombardier. Governments also provide monopoly protections for telecoms and banks and insurance companies basically have free reign over us, good times or bad. So it depends where you look.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

But starting in 1980, that completely changed. From 1980 to now, the median income only increased by about 20% in inflation-adjusted terms, and for lower income people it was more like 17-18%. But for the 95th percentile? It went up about 75-80% over the same time period.

What happened to change that? Neoliberalism and Reaganism. They lowered taxes on the rich significantly (funded by large deficits), started gutting things that benefited the working and middle classes (35% of private sector workers had a pension in 1980 vs. 15% today), and introduced rules to benefit those with capital (for instance, stock buybacks were illegal prior to 1982, now they're done all the time)

The post-war boom ended in 1973, not 1980. Reagan and Thatcher swept to power because for most people the inflation-wracked 70s sucked. The economic malaise and stagflation of that decade set the stage for reaction. Americans were less happy in 1979 than they are today.

High inflation and uneven economic performance soured the national mood. In November 1979, only 19% of Americans were satisfied in the U.S., compared with 22% in April 2022, according to a Gallup survey. Americans' satisfaction with the national trend in this poll peaked at 71% in 1999. In the 1970s, lower living standards and declining confidence in economic policy were commonplace.

https://www.investopedia.com/article...tagflation.asp

Reaganism and Thatcherism weren’t the economic miracles that their champions claim. But they also didn’t bring about the downfall of the Golden Age - it was already over.

https://aeon.co/essays/how-economic-...came-to-an-end

[Mr.Coffee]

Regardless, opendoors assertion that wealth is aggregating to a small minority and that their wealth is unparalleled is not wrong and, if “the west” wants to function in the long-term, needs to figure out. Or eventually the rich will no longer be rich. This can be stated as almost fact if you look at what happens to mass aggregation of wealth throughout many societies in history.

Generally my opinion is pretty straightforward, the ultra wealthy can either agree to some form of normalization or have it all taken away from them, basically.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Regardless, opendoors assertion that wealth is aggregating to a small minority and that their wealth is unparalleled is not wrong and, if “the west” wants to function in the long-term, needs to figure out. Or eventually the rich will no longer be rich. This can be stated as almost fact if you look at what happens to mass aggregation of wealth throughout many societies in history.

Generally my opinion is pretty straightforward, the ultra wealthy can either agree to some form of normalization or have it all taken away from them, basically.

With regards to previous wealth redistribution and uprisings against the rich I wonder if that is possible now in a global, mobile economy? In the past the economy was highly localized and it was relatively easy to fight against the wealthy plant or land owners or whatever and their assets were mostly physical. The approach that worked previously probably won't work in our era and I'm not certain how it would be possible to take away the wealth from people.

[Fuzz]

What if we give them free rides on sketchy submarines?

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The post-war boom ended in 1973, not 1980. Reagan and Thatcher swept to power because for most people the inflation-wracked 70s sucked. The economic malaise and stagflation of that decade set the stage for reaction. Americans were less happy in 1979 than they are today.

There was still good Real wage growth in the '70s for lower income earners.

But that's not really the point; it's not a question of a boom ending. Whatever economic issues there were in the '70s, it was primarily the result of having three recessions in the span of a decade. And in that period, every quintile's wage growth was pretty similar. So the top 5% saw the same growth as the median, which was a continuation of the post WWII trend.

The difference post-1980 is, during the boom times high earners and the wealthy have seen massive gains that the rest of society hasn't really benefited from. That didn't happen in the 40 years prior but it did happen in the '80s and beyond.

Asset prices really drive this home. From WWII to 1980, the S&P 500 increased by about 90% after inflation. In that same period, median inflation-adjusted wages went up by over 100%, so wages outpaced asset growth. Since 1980 though, and after a significant overhaul in laws and policies designed to benefit the wealthy and those with capital, median Real wages have gone up by only ~20%, while the S&P 500 has increased 800% after adjusting for inflation. And this trend is only accelerating.