[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by Rejean31

So he’s a professional bitcher!! He can piss off as far as I’m concerned!! Yeah dip####, let’s not build an arena, lose our hockey team and be forever known as Edmonton’s ugly weak cousin!! No ####ing thank you!!

If I could wring the insecurity out of this post I'd be able to bathe in it

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

I don't think many landlords build a building for 538 million dollars and then lease it out to get a present value of 316 million dollars over a 35 year lease. I did a lot of development law when I was practicing law and I just don't recall many developers coming in and saying "I have a killer deal where my up front costs are 170% of the value of my return". Usually the landlords tried to make money on the buildings they owned.

Of the 500+ buildings the City of Calgary owns, how many turn a profit? Not a single library, aquatics center, arena, etc. Developers and government infrastructure have very different objectives and revenue streams, they are not comparable.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by Redlan

Of the 500+ buildings the City of Calgary owns, how many turn a profit? Not a single library, aquatics center, arena, etc. Developers and government infrastructure have very different objectives and revenue streams, they are not comparable.

This isn't "Government infrastructure" though, it's an arena expressly built for an entertainment corporation that will see little to no public use. That same corporation also gets to collect concert revenue from the building (that the taxpayers are building for them) to boot. The city is acting as a developer on behalf of said private enterprise, but is getting no return on the investment on behalf of the taxpayers who are footing the bill for it

It's ####ing obscene

[White Out 403]

I remember being outraged at the model that would see 1/3 from flames, 1/3 from the government at all levels, and 1/3 from users. How quaint in hindsight. I got that we're on Flames board, but I really feel like people are not grasping just how badly the community at large is being raked over by enormously wealthy owners of this team. Wealthy owners who are so rich they couldn't possibly spend the money they have, nor could their grandkids or great grandkids. Meanwhile emergency room wait times are 8 to 12 hours every day.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Scornfire

This isn't "Government infrastructure" though, it's an arena expressly built for an entertainment corporation that will see little to no public use. That same corporation also gets to collect concert revenue from the building (that the taxpayers are building for them) to boot. The city is acting as a developer on behalf of said private enterprise, but is getting no return on the investment on behalf of the taxpayers who are footing the bill for it

It's ####ing obscene

This is entirely false and very simplistic. This is a capital project with capital assets that are both tangible and intangible. The City of Calgary, Calgary restaurants, Calgary Hotels, Calgary Developers, and countless other Calgary Businesses and the Calgary taxpayers will all benefit (tangibly and intangibly) outside of your simplistic statement. Say it enough...maybe swear and it makes you right... Right? But sit in Kelowna and keep telling us in Calgary how this works when it doesn't impact you.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Redlan

This is entirely false and very simplistic. This is a capital project with capital assets that are both tangible and intangible. The City of Calgary, Calgary restaurants, Calgary Hotels, Calgary Developers, and countless other Calgary Businesses and the Calgary taxpayers will all benefit (tangibly and intangibly) outside of your simplistic statement. Say it enough...maybe swear and it makes you right... Right? But sit in Kelowna and keep telling us in Calgary how this works when it doesn't impact you.

I'm pretty sure this dead horse has been beaten to a pulp, but I think all the studies around arenas make pretty clear that neither tangible nor intangible benefits (unless you're talking about intangible like... "I enjoy having a hockey team that plays here") are even significant enough to be worth mentioning, and any perceived economic benefits are actually the result of economic benefits moving from one area of the city to another, not new benefits being created.

Like, sure, it might benefit all those groups. But more than it costs? And more than they're already benefitting from anything else? No.

I live in Calgary, so I hope I am qualified to present this information.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Redlan

This is entirely false and very simplistic. This is a capital project with capital assets that are both tangible and intangible. The City of Calgary, Calgary restaurants, Calgary Hotels, Calgary Developers, and countless other Calgary Businesses and the Calgary taxpayers will all benefit (tangibly and intangibly) outside of your simplistic statement. Say it enough...maybe swear and it makes you right... Right? But sit in Kelowna and keep telling us in Calgary how this works when it doesn't impact you.

This is false. Countless, countless studies that show economic impact of new arenas is effectively negligible; all that really happens is that you shift spending from one part of the city to another.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by White Out 403

I remember being outraged at the model that would see 1/3 from flames, 1/3 from the government at all levels, and 1/3 from users. How quaint in hindsight. I got that we're on Flames board, but I really feel like people are not grasping just how badly the community at large is being raked over by enormously wealthy owners of this team. Wealthy owners who are so rich they couldn't possibly spend the money they have, nor could their grandkids or great grandkids. Meanwhile emergency room wait times are 8 to 12 hours every day.

Emergency wait times have nothing to do with this conversation...educate people that Emergency Rooms are for emergencies and not for a sore throat they woke up this morning, or they think there is a cure for the common cold, or they waited 3 weeks and now cannot get into their family doctor TODAY so why not go to Emergency? Guess what? Emergency Rooms use a system for admission called Triage. If it is an actual EMERGENCY there is absolutely no wait time. Really 8 to 12 hour wait times are for non-emergency. I see far too much abuse of the Emergency Room.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

This is false. Countless, countless studies that show economic impact of new arenas is effectively negligible; all that really happens is that you shift spending from one part of the city to another.

were these studies conducted in large cities with no large arena? because I don't think any exist

City will build an arena eventually...Flames or no Flames

Them paying for something is better than nothing, get over it and move on with your lives

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by dino7c

were these studies conducted in large cities with no large arena? because I don't think any exist

City will build an arena eventually...Flames or no Flames

Them paying for something is better than nothing, get over it and move on with your lives

Uh...

You can debate other merits of doing this. But economic impacts of a new stadium is not one of them.

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by Redlan

This is entirely false and very simplistic. This is a capital project with capital assets that are both tangible and intangible. The City of Calgary, Calgary restaurants, Calgary Hotels, Calgary Developers, and countless other Calgary Businesses and the Calgary taxpayers will all benefit (tangibly and intangibly) outside of your simplistic statement. Say it enough...maybe swear and it makes you right... Right? But sit in Kelowna and keep telling us in Calgary how this works when it doesn't impact you.

I lived in Calgary 90% of my life, and operate a business that employs Calgarians and pays taxes to the city

But I appreciate you sticking up for your corporate grifterlords good sir

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Uh...

You can debate other merits of doing this. But economic impacts of a new stadium is not one of them.

vs. no stadium?
these studies were conducted with obvious bias

Stadium is falling apart, one will need to be built eventually...its not just new for the sake of new

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by dino7c

vs. no stadium?
these studies were conducted with obvious bias

Stadium is falling apart, one will need to be built eventually...its not just new for the sake of new

By all means build one, but if the Flames "can't afford" to build their own and are going to the well for 97% of the construction costs, why is the city not leveraging what is essentially outright ownership of the building into some revenue streams via it's use? Handing over everything to CSEC for a paltry lease (or loan repayment, it's one or the other but certainly not both) is objectively poor business, on top of giving them right to first refusal on development opportunities in the area. City council served up Calgary on a platter to CSEC

[dino7c]

Council should have been smart enough to get a deal done a while back

like I said, you are building one eventually anyway...take what you can get
look at all the cities who have built rinks and are begging for a team

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by dino7c

vs. no stadium?
these studies were conducted with obvious bias

Stadium is falling apart, one will need to be built eventually...its not just new for the sake of new

Huh?

Just google, they are everywhere, Michigan, Berkley... Trevor tombe locally. You may not like them, but those are the findings.

Even listen to the flames and/or city, no one is arguing look at great economic benefits team makes, it's sentimental, etc.

I'm a huge flames and baseball fan. You can argue for the stadium, but it's not going to bring this significant additional economic impact. If it's important to you, it's important, that's fine, I'm just saying arguing for it based on an additional economic boon is....not one of the arguments in favour.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Redlan

Emergency wait times have nothing to do with this conversation...educate people that Emergency Rooms are for emergencies and not for a sore throat they woke up this morning, or they think there is a cure for the common cold, or they waited 3 weeks and now cannot get into their family doctor TODAY so why not go to Emergency? Guess what? Emergency Rooms use a system for admission called Triage. If it is an actual EMERGENCY there is absolutely no wait time. Really 8 to 12 hour wait times are for non-emergency. I see far too much abuse of the Emergency Room.

"Educate People".

Come on, this is silly. There are a lot of health things that come up and need attention in a day or two. Having family doctors tell you "cool, I've got you in 4 weeks from now" is exactly the problem. Previously, there used to be capacity to drop in for the more pressing stuff.

Some people overflowing emergency are idiots for sure, but we have nothing in place to filter the idiots.

Things like swabbing for strep at pharmacies (education should be part of this, people need to know it exists) are fantastic and we should look to expand on the use of pharmacists, nurse practitioners and maybe actually address the family doctor shortage some time soon.

[Yeah_Baby]

Yeah, you can't also downplay the fact that a lot of the folks who present to the ED with non emergent issues are doing because they DON'T have a medical home/access to a Family Doc.

Not saying Redlan's point isn't valid. It is. Triage is Triage for a reason. But it's a wider issue than just 'stupid people'

edit: also do listed wait times in the AHS app consist of door to bed time AND bed to Doc time, or is door to being seen by the doc. (anyway this probably too inside baseball but number of beds/docs etc is another factor, patient workflows etc)

[8sPOT]

Its shocking how many people call 911 for very minor things, there is absolutely a problem with the system and how often its abused. Now this info comes from various paramedics I know in the city and they could all very well just be super jaded. But they say 1/4 of calls are a complete waste of their time. That just seems crazy to me, I've never dialed 911 in my entire life, and they have some people they see over and over again who call 911, almost becoming regulars.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

Huh?

Just google, they are everywhere, Michigan, Berkley... Trevor tombe locally. You may not like them, but those are the findings.

Even listen to the flames and/or city, no one is arguing look at great economic benefits team makes, it's sentimental, etc.

I'm a huge flames and baseball fan. You can argue for the stadium, but it's not going to bring this significant additional economic impact. If it's important to you, it's important, that's fine, I'm just saying arguing for it based on an additional economic boon is....not one of the arguments in favour.

There is an economic boon vs not having a large stadium at all

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Yeah, you can't also downplay the fact that a lot of the folks who present to the ED with non emergent issues are doing because they DON'T have a medical home/access to a Family Doc.

Not saying Redlan's point isn't valid. It is. Triage is Triage for a reason. But it's a wider issue than just 'stupid people'

edit: also do listed wait times in the AHS app consist of door to bed time AND bed to Doc time, or is door to being seen by the doc. (anyway this probably too inside baseball but number of beds/docs etc is another factor, patient workflows etc)

well, my last trip to the ER - the ER itself was fine. The fact the ambulance never came was a slightly larger concern.