[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

There is city owned land in the area.

The last deal gave the Flames first option to buy the Enoch Sales land before shovels went into ground.

It also gave them first rights to buy the land which the Bus Barn land for 6 years after they moved into the arena IIRC but the city was not obligated to make that land available for development within that time frame.

So how is the UPC involved if it’s city land ?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

So how is the UPC involved if it’s city land ?

Yeah this becomes the question. If it’s part of the deal the city negotiated (if it’s true) then why is Notley stepping into it?

[Senator Clay Davis]

She never says the UCP is involved, she just calls on Smith for the full release of the deal.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They should be the sweeteners that allow the public to get a better deal. If they are just sweeteners with no benefit on our side, it would feel like a lost opportunity.

Yup. Depends what the details are. If it is another subsidy to CSEC in the form of cheap land or cheap development then it is even worse for getting an arena for 40 million dollars + rent. Fair market value for land and development rights then at least it isn't a even bigger subsidy.

[Bonded]

Can't quote but Smith and the UCP made this an election issue and have tied provincial funds into the project. If they are withholding details from the public on the structure of the deal then it is fair for Notley to ask for them.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If I'm following most of the justification for this deal, it's been:
- This is a great day, so shut up/stop ruining my vibe
- There are unnamed worse things this could be spent on, and named things like... an even more expensive arena
- It will have economic benefits beyond anything else the money could be spent on but there will never be any direct evidence of this so stop asking
- The money was earmarked for this so it was actually impossible for them not to spend even more of it on this
- This was inevitable, and it's actually your fault that it's so expensive now
- You'll get over it
- Flames stay

As I said last night, at $1.2b I would think there'd be more justification than various mixes of "shut up" and shoulder shrugs. But I'll be happy if the people excited about this promise never to complain about property taxes or the cost of things like hospitals, transit lines, or accessible community projects ever again.

That's definitely going to happen, right?

A lot of people don’t complain about property taxes

Taxes are meant to be used for things including services and infrastructure


Yes, the government has money earmarked for infrastructure. Not sure why that is a problem. Point is, if it’s already budgeted for, these aren’t new taxpayer dollars. It’s just the allocation of the earmarked dollars

There are obvious immediate economic benefits, it’s not like this is a sunk cost. In the near term, a bunch of that investment goes directly into the local labour force and businesses providing the materials and services. Money into the local economy. The government will also collect back the GST on the transactions, and income taxes for all the labourers, no?

I would expect the project will attract further private sector development


Let’s do a quick calculation - worst case scenario — say this is just a massive sunk cost and was all net new dollars they were asking for - then if the contribution would see me holding the bag equally with all Albertans

1.226 B / 4.5 million is 272 per Albertan
Over 35 years, that’s $7.78 a year

70 percent (which Notley said taxpayers are paying) of that is $5.44 per year

I personally make worse decisions with 5 bucks more than once a year.
(Anyone here ever bought a ticket to a Flames game? )

(Also, I’m sure there is someone on here complaining about it, that also just throws out their recyclables instead of going to the bottle depot.)


Meanwhile the Alberta government had higher than forecasted 76 billion (14 billion higher than the budgeted 62) in projected revenue in 2022-23

They have a 23 billion dollar capital plan this year covering many things and this is a line item, and I’m sure the capital spend is spread over a few years


I’m fine. I will not notice a thing in my day to day and expect most people won’t either. It will be much more of a high profile bitching contest than anything that torpedoes anyone’s way of life

Build a new stadium.

Maybe Taylor Swift will come here

[Manhattanboy]

Did Rachel say she supports Alberta's commitment in principle?

[FlamesAddiction]

I see someone already mentioned it, but wouldn't a land development deal on the side be between the City and CSEC?

Notley is saying that there is a secret side deal, but doesn't know what it is, just that it exists. How did she find out about it, but yet not get any details on it?

I think it can be assumed that there are land development deals in the fine print. The last deal with the City had things like that.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

There is city owned land in the area.

The last deal gave the Flames first option to buy the Enoch Sales land before shovels went into ground.

It also gave them first rights to buy the land which the Bus Barn sits on for 6 years after they moved into the arena IIRC but the city was not obligated to make that land available for development within that time frame.

So the land IS owned by the city and they have control over when and if the land is sold. I would also assume they have the right to establish price for sale, with the Flames only holding the right of to purchase at that price (fair market value)? Where's the beef if this is real?

[Manhattanboy]

Are some suggesting the province would expropriate private land to be sold back to CSEC for development? There's no way that happens.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Are some suggesting the province would expropriate private land to be sold back to CSEC for development? There's no way that happens.

lol that is a big jump. Has any one even come close to implying that?

The issue is the lack of details. If it a simple deal where CSEC can pay fair market value for the land and development rights then why not come out with the simple terms that outline that.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The conspiracy theories are starting to come out now. Always a great way to appeal to your wackadoodle base and feed their delusions.

Saying you've learned there a side deal, and asking for the details is not really my definition of wackadoodle.

OTOH, simply dismissing this might be.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Did Rachel say she supports Alberta's commitment in principle?

Tweet thread - there's more than this but IMO the highlights

https://twitter.com/user/status/1651341322413035520

https://twitter.com/user/status/1651341327219712000

https://twitter.com/user/status/1651341337726427137

[getbak]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

yeah. your taxpayer dollars are going to Edwards so he can make billions more, and the UCP are hiding this until they get elected.

If he's getting the rights to all the land around the arena, he should have paid for more of the arena.

Oh well. When I'm collecting bottles to pay out of pocket for health care, it will be ok, as the Flames got a new arena out of it.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They should be the sweeteners that allow the public to get a better deal. If they are just sweeteners with no benefit on our side, it would feel like a lost opportunity.

Originally Posted by sureLoss

There is city owned land in the area.

The last deal gave the Flames first option to buy the Enoch Sales land before shovels went into ground.

It also gave them first rights to buy the land which the Bus Barn sits on for 6 years after they moved into the arena IIRC but the city was not obligated to make that land available for development within that time frame.

Okay, so if it's free land being given to CSEC, that's one thing, but if it's just first rights of refusal (assuming fair market value), I have no issue with it.

It seems like a fair question for Notley to ask, and something we should be able to know.

[MacDaddy77]

nm

[MacDaddy77]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Relax. Kids might have had to wait 18 hours in the emergency room and get treated in trailers outside of the Children's Hospital a few months ago, but the arena the millionaires skate around in for a few hundred hours a year is like... ugly... and the dressing rooms? yuck. And don't even MAKE me mention the concrete roof that sends chunks off killing 10-15 attendees during every event. That's real, man, don't look it up. Just trust me. Losing a couple kids to healthcare capacity issues is worth fixing this extremely important issue. Survival of the fittest my guy.

Jesus H Christ. Can you be any more dramatic.

honestly.

[SuperMatt18]

My bet is also that city/province have to cover any overruns...which would make this much worse than the last deal

[Hockey_Ninja]

Originally Posted by MacDaddy77

Jesus H Christ. Can you be any more dramatic.

honestly.

I mean, he isn’t entirely wrong. I’m ultimately glad the arena is getting built, but I don’t think it’s a great deal for Albertan tax payers

[Ashasx]

feels like this isn't going to happen

[getbak]

This is from the FAQs on the Flames site:

If cost overruns occur - how will they be funded?

Both CSEC and The City will share cost overruns. Additional funds for The City's share of potential cost overruns are proposed to be set aside from revenues from future land sales and future anticipated investment income from the Major Capital Projects Reserve.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/news/even...qs/c-343889022