[News] Flames and Treliving agree to part ways. Maloney promoted to PoHO and interim GM

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

How much was Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk's success because of Sutter...or how much was because they knew having great seasons was maybe the easiest way to get away from Sutter.

lol this is now starting to go off the deep end. You think they purposely played worse before their contracts were up and then decided as a collective to just play better to get away from Sutter?

Tkachuk would have been coveted even if he had a 60 point season and he structured his contract to be able to leave before Sutter was hired. If Gaudreau found another gear it was to cash in on a UFA contract. Neither were stuck beholden to Sutter.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

If this is even remotely true (which seems ridiculous) why would the team want to retain any of these players reported to want out? If they can't handle some adversity from their coach, they aren't going to be able to push themselves far enough to win a cup.

Maybe it's just me getting old, but toughness is required physically AND mentally and it seems that too many of these big names on the Flames roster don't seem willing or able to push through much adversity at all.

If it's 1-2 players then I think you can point at the players, but at this point it seems like we are approaching the entire roster (except maybe Toffoli). So at that point I think you have to start looking more at the coach.

It's a different era and generation. There are ways to be demanding and tough without being an ####### about it.

And based on the last two years it feels like Sutter leans too far into the being a jerk, and "pushing buttons" as his motivational tactics.

Originally Posted by Major Major

People unwilling to give credit to sutter for '22 sound the same to me as people unwilling to critique him in '23.

He gets some credit for sure. Especially for defensive structure and the strong defensive play the team had in 21-22.

However I do think it might be tough to give him too much credit for the play of Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk, outside of him just putting those three together to start with.

Originally Posted by Bonded

lol this is now starting to go off the deep end. You think they purposely played worse before their contracts were up and then decided as a collective to just play better to get away from Sutter?

Tkachuk would have been coveted even if he had a 60 point season and he structured his contract to be able to leave before Sutter was hired. If Gaudreau found another gear it was to cash in on a UFA contract. Neither were stuck beholden to Sutter.

I think it's just as crazy as giving him 100% credit for that line's play in 2021-22.

I think overall there was a lot of stuff that Sutter's system and structure helped with that season. I'm not sure the offensive production of 13-28-19 is one of them. Two of those guys already left, and based on his comments the third one sounds like he wants out.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So incoming great seasons from all the pending ufas.

Then we'll hold onto them past the trade deadline because we'll be in 10th spot and lose them for nothing in July.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If it's 1-2 players then I think you can point at the players, but at this point it seems like we are approaching the entire roster (except maybe Toffoli). So at that point I think you have to start looking more at the coach.

It's a different era and generation. There are ways to be demanding and tough without being an ####### about it.

And based on the last two years it feels like Sutter leans too far into the being a jerk, and "pushing buttons" as his motivational tactics.

I think Covid made American players more weary of playing in Canada then they already were. Work places aren't fun when times are tough and times are tough in Calgary. If they hire a new coach and are still out of it next year then I'd expect Lindholm and Backlund would still want out. I think Sutter should be canned but I also don't think it will magically fix the team. If they start winning and live up to their potential then I think the UFAs are more likely to stick around.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I think Covid made American players more weary of playing in Canada then they already were. Work places aren't fun when times are tough and times are tough in Calgary. If they hire a new coach and are still out of it next year then I'd expect Lindholm and Backlund would still want out. I think Sutter should be canned but I also don't think it will magically fix the team. If they start winning and live up to their potential then I think the UFAs are more likely to stick around.

I'm sure there are lots of things that made Gaudreau and Tkachuk leave.

COVID is a big factor for sure. Previous contract negotiations play a role. I think the arena and ownership in particular may be a factor.

But I've also heard from at least three different people now that Sutter being coach played a role in both Gaudreau and Tkachuk's decisions.

Doesn't mean it's the 100% reason for the decision but it was a factor.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If it's 1-2 players then I think you can point at the players, but at this point it seems like we are approaching the entire roster (except maybe Toffoli). So at that point I think you have to start looking more at the coach.

It's a different era and generation. There are ways to be demanding and tough without being an ####### about it.

And based on the last two years it feels like Sutter leans too far into the being a jerk, and "pushing buttons" as his motivational tactics.

Well from my standpoint, too bad. As a player you are paid millions of dollars to be pushed to your absolute limits for 7-8 months a year. None of them seem to have trouble fighting to be paid among the best in the league when contract time comes around - if Sutter is holding these guys to account on that, I say good for him on that front.

Pulling the chute because you don't like a coaches tactics just shows exactly how committed to winning some of these players really are, and to me, it is starting to look like this is a major reason that Tre was never able to get a consistent winner on the ice just as much it was limitations and constant meddling by ownership. You can all but guarantee the same guys whining about Sutter are the same guys that need to be kicked in the pants when things get tough.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'm sure there are lots of things that made Gaudreau and Tkachuk leave.

COVID is a big factor for sure. Previous contract negotiations play a role.

But I've also heard from at least three different people now that Sutter being coach played a role in both Gaudreau and Tkachuk's decisions.

Doesn't mean it's the 100% reason for the decision but it was a factor.

I'm sure it was a factor but i am talking about the on ice play part. I think the simplest answer is that Tkachuk and Gaudreau were playing for new contracts and then found some insane chemistry.

On Gaudreau, I have heard way more smoke that his wife wanted to go and he wanted to stay, maybe without Sutter he would have fought harder to stay. Tkachuk I totally believe Sutter was a factor but I have also heard a little smoke that it also was a locker room thing. Now, most of my information is from people who work for the Flames but only one of them interacts with the players, so I always take it with a grain of salt.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I'm sure there are lots of things that made Gaudreau and Tkachuk leave.

COVID is a big factor for sure. Previous contract negotiations play a role. I think the arena and ownership in particular may be a factor.

But I've also heard from at least three different people now that Sutter being coach played a role in both Gaudreau and Tkachuk's decisions.

Doesn't mean it's the 100% reason for the decision but it was a factor.

I guess it depends on the player. I heard a lot of players in St Louis hate Berube. But they know he won't be around for their entire contract. And he does get a lot out of his players.

I also heard Johnny had a decent relationship with Darryl. And this doesn't mean others who heard differently are wrong. I think coach/player relationships can be up and down.

[GioforPM]

There's a difference between "this coach is so bad I want out" and "my contract is up so what are the pro and con factors for staying? Coach is on the con list".

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I'm sure it was a factor but i am talking about the on ice play part. I think the simplest answer is that Tkachuk and Gaudreau were playing for new contracts and then found some insane chemistry.

On Gaudreau, I have heard way more smoke that his wife wanted to go and he wanted to stay, maybe without Sutter he would have fought harder to stay. Tkachuk I totally believe Sutter was a factor but I have also heard a little smoke that it also was a locker room thing. Now, most of my information is from people who work for the Flames but only one of them interacts with the players, so I always take it with a grain of salt.

I heard some similar things. I don't think Johnny's wife hates (as some would like to believe)Calgary, she was worried if there was further restrictions in the future she wouldn't have family support with the new born.

Chucky seemed to have double personality. He would say one thing in the media and be totally different with teammates. And it rubbed some of his teammates the wrong way.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I heard some similar things. I don't think Johnny's wife hates (as some would like to believe)Calgary, she was worried if there was further restrictions in the future she wouldn't have family support with the new born.

Yup, I think no Covid and/or a normal season production wise for him and he would have stayed for sure. I also think he got a little cocky and thought big offers would be swinging in from New Jersey and Philly and they didn't materialize like he hoped but that is mostly based on his one interview he did after the fact lol.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There's a difference between "this coach is so bad I want out" and "my contract is up so what are the pro and con factors for staying? Coach is on the con list".

Fair, but I think this market can’t afford cons on a pivotal piece like the coach, especially without the star power, arena, etc that will draw talent otherwise.

[taxbuster]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If it's 1-2 players then I think you can point at the players, but at this point it seems like we are approaching the entire roster (except maybe Toffoli). So at that point I think you have to start looking more at the coach.

Did I miss something?

How did we move from Lindy and Backs being noncommital to "approaching the entire roster" wanting out?

(And IIRC, Z, Lewis and Stone were all happy to return, not just TT)

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Did I miss something?

How did we move from Lindy and Backs being noncommital to "approaching the entire roster" wanting out?

(And IIRC, Z, Lewis and Stone were all happy to return, not just TT)

Hanifin as well surprisingly

[genetic_phreek]

Some people are making out Treliving to be the greatest GM that got away. All owners are involved in operations to a degree, doesn't matter what business you are in because you need to protect your investment.

The narrative that Treliving had his hands tied and was a puppet for ownership is a bit much. Ownership directed him to make playoffs and there are so many ways to do so. Treliving still had to make decisions and he's made a few poor ones. He's also made a lot of good negotiations but overall we are in the position we are today is because of Treliving, good or bad.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There's a difference between "this coach is so bad I want out" and "my contract is up so what are the pro and con factors for staying? Coach is on the con list".

Is there? If you work for a company where the management sucks and your boss is a total bozo aren't you going to be motivated to leave and will do everything you can to make that move most likely?

[jlh2640]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

How much was Gaudreau-Lindholm-Tkachuk's success because of Sutter...or how much was because they knew having great seasons was maybe the easiest way to get away from Sutter.

More and more it's feeling like the latter to me.

I'm not sure we can give Sutter credit for Tkachuk and Gaudreau having such a great season. I'm sure some of his system helped, but to me that feels more like it's 80% them and 20% Sutter at this point.

Man, I get the skepticism but this is a reach . . . .

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

Did I miss something?

How did we move from Lindy and Backs being noncommital to "approaching the entire roster" wanting out?

(And IIRC, Z, Lewis and Stone were all happy to return, not just TT)

I'm focused more on the actual core guys that matter. If Lucic, Lewis, and Stone like Sutter that is irrelevant to me, of course they like him based on he deploys them and that is part of the problem.

The rumors all year have been that a lot of the locker room was unhappy with Sutter.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk left already with Sutter at least playing some part of a factor based on what I've heard.

Lindy and Backs seemed to clearly be unhappy.

Huberdeau and Kadri have long term deals so can't really leave but rumors are they aren't huge Sutter fans.

I've heard Coleman, Mangiapane, Tanev, Ruzicka, and Markstrom also aren't huge Sutter fans.

So really if we are at the point that only Toffoli, Zadorov, Andersson, and Hanifin are the guys under contract that like playing for Sutter then I do think that is an issue.

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Fair, but I think this market can’t afford cons on a pivotal piece like the coach, especially without the star power, arena, etc that will draw talent otherwise.

100% This.

This org already seems to have an issue attracting and keeping talent at all levels of the organization at this point. Based on some things that are controllable and some things that aren't.

Having a coach that is another "Con" just is another check against the org that is already swimming upstream compared to some other markets at this point.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Is there? If you work for a company where the management sucks and your boss is a total bozo aren't you going to be motivated to leave and will do everything you can to make that move most likely?

Not if you get paid a tonne of money.

Or have awesome colleagues.

Or love the work you actually do.

Or dig the free cafeteria if that's your thing.

Or have autonomy to personally grow.

Or some combo of these and others.

Gio is right. Bad coach (or boss) goes on the con list, but it doesn't have to be the only factor whether you stay or go. Sutter can be a pretty big "con" though.

EDIT: I see that "This post is terrible" is lurking. I'm going to refresh a few times.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Well from my standpoint, too bad. As a player you are paid millions of dollars to be pushed to your absolute limits for 7-8 months a year. None of them seem to have trouble fighting to be paid among the best in the league when contract time comes around - if Sutter is holding these guys to account on that, I say good for him on that front.

Pulling the chute because you don't like a coaches tactics just shows exactly how committed to winning some of these players really are, and to me, it is starting to look like this is a major reason that Tre was never able to get a consistent winner on the ice just as much it was limitations and constant meddling by ownership. You can all but guarantee the same guys whining about Sutter are the same guys that need to be kicked in the pants when things get tough.

Elite talent earns the privilege to call their shot.

I can see why they might want out after buying into the system [to some degree] and performing exceptionally well. Only for things to implode in the playoffs because the stubborn hardass behind them got outcoached by a ventriloquist dummy (and goaltending of course).

I don't think I'd be keen to run through a brick wall for another 80 games and then watch my socalled accountability driven coach send Nick Ritchie out in a critical shootout (as one random example).