As I mentioned in the Hockey Canada thread, I find it extremely hypocritical for the NHL or NHL teams to have a 'Pride Night' but not a single one of them has spoken out or brought light to the disaster that has gone on with Team Canada at the world juniors, hazing events, locker room culture, sexual assault in hockey circles, etc. All these problems are documented and have been brought to light the last couple years, and we all know they are extremely damaging when it comes to trying to get more kids into minor hockey.
You're not wrong, but this isn't a reason to not do Pride night. The NHL needs to do more but you also have to start somewhere, can't change culture overnight.
In fact, one could argue that things like Pride night are exactly what the NHL needs to be doing to combat toxic hockey culture.
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They should probably do both. Have more regular, every day gestures to promote welcoming and inclusion, and nights like this to drive home the point. Jersey nights are a good thing for their own sake, but it is primarily a PR and marketing thing. I don't think it's good enough to do it, and then wipe your hands like you've accomplished something. Similar to Indigenous acknowledgement initiatives. The special nights set aside are largely a PR and marketing strategy, and it is something that should become part of the regular day operations even when the cameras are off.
As for the jersey thing being a choice and players pressured into doing it, I don't really care. They should feel pressure to do it. I guess I don't see the initiative as political really, any more than anti-bullying or charity work are political. I am sure there are some players that would rather goof off on their time off rather than participate in team organized charity work, and only do so because they feel social pressure to do it. If they refused, they should be called out for it.
The Oilers do a fantastic pre-game land acknowledgement every game, done by an actual Chief (Chief Wilton Littlechild). I find it is so well written and so meaningful coming from a Chief who welcomes us recognize their heritage since time immemorial and walk with them in reconciliation. Gonna try to find a video.
EDIT: Forgot to add E=NG.
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As I mentioned in the Hockey Canada thread, I find it extremely hypocritical for the NHL or NHL teams to have a 'Pride Night' but not a single one of them has spoken out or brought light to the disaster that has gone on with Team Canada at the world juniors, hazing events, locker room culture, sexual assault in hockey circles, etc. All these problems are documented and have been brought to light the last couple years, and we all know they are extremely damaging when it comes to trying to get more kids into minor hockey.
I understand that some effort is better than no effort, but the NHL can't have it both ways.
One example from a NHL executive, Brian Burke. We all know his specific reasons for speaking out in favor of Pride night, and he has valid points and good on him for being outspoken in trying to make hockey a sport for everyone.
But you can't be saying that stuff, and when asked about Hockey Canada allegations, you make excuses and say 'oh there are so many players, can't manage it all, blah, blah, blah Hockey Canada is doing a good job.' It simply doesn't work. If you have a culture of sexual assault, hazing, etc it needs to be ended, especially if you sit there and say 'oh hockey is for everyone', but make excuses for the old boys club stupidity.
There is an insane level of hypocrisy going on in the NHL right now, in the media, executives, etc and one has to wonder if it has to do with the fact that if their players would get exposed, charged and possibly kicked from the NHL, that it would affect their bottom line.
Given how Rick Westhead has struggled to bring this story to light, how Hockey Canada has stonewalled even the Federal Government, how the media and especially TSN as the media outlet that has covered the world juniors for decades, basically ignored the story for the longest time, how can we expect parents of children that are LGBTQ, or really are anything else other than the 'norm' to feel it is a good idea to involve their kids in minor hockey IN Canada, when Hockey Canada is not being held accountable for their actions, and when the NHL and major people involved in the sport of hockey like pretending the allegations don't exist?
The cynical position is so ####ing lazy and counter-productive.
Nobody is saying the NHL deserves a standing ovation here. They can and should do more, but every journey starts with a small step.
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Not a big fan of the jersey itself looks wise, but not sure how worked up people can get when it is only worn for a warm up as far as I understand it. Even if it were worn for the entire game, I don't cheer for this team based on how the jersey looks. Fully support the message behind it and people/players getting bent out of shape for putting one on for a little warm up is ridiculous.
That's odd, because it's the only reason I still do. Some of the most beautiful kits in the league keep me coming back time and again because it sure ain't for the on-ice success. They almost lost me for a hot minute with those "Calgary" word mark jerseys. I was ready to hand in my fan card over that one.
*green text implied
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That's odd, because it's the only reason I still do. Some of the most beautiful kits in the league keep me coming back time and again because it sure ain't for the on-ice success. They almost lost me for a hot minute with those "Calgary" word mark jerseys. I was ready to hand in my fan card over that one.
*green text implied
Lol I admit to luckily thinking our normal Jerseys are definitely in the upper echelon across the league...but most of the jersey designs these days are fairly palatable excluding the ones from up highway 2.
I'm mostly here for the shared misery and practice lying to myself!
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Encouraged but optional is my preference as a consumer.
I'm in the same boat, for slightly different reasons... but with a caveat. If you elect not to wear the pride jersey in warm ups, what you do not get to do is then make the night about you. You do not get to do what Staal did, and release a statement on social media suggesting that being gay is a choice, or saying anything at all beyond "I have chosen not to participate for personal reasons on the basis of my religious beliefs". There is no platform here to proclaim your personal views to the contrary to of those expressed by the organization hosting the Pride event.
If that is where the line is drawn, there is no punishment for electing not to wear a pride jersey or skate in warm ups. There IS a punishment coming your way - in the form of a team-initiated suspension - if you violate the team's media strategy by releasing public statements that undermine to what the team is trying to achieve with their event by distracting from it. If the media asks you questions, you say "I have no comment", other than "I decided not to participate for personal reasons". Nothing else.
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I don’t know. Personally if you have a belief about something, right or wrong it should be spoken about. There may be valid points or points to refute but being silenced is such a poor precedent these days. Then people start doing things for face value while holding feelings and beliefs quietly instead of having them challenged. I have no skin in this game but man I really don’t like the idea of people shut up just because. I just don’t see anything productive coming out of it.
I just want to distance my opinion on the actual jersey/logo from takes like this. I have other Flames Pride things and I 100% support Pride and everything around it. Frankly, a couple of my friends have debated bidding on a jersey to gift me because they know I don't like these actual jerseys, despite being 100% supportive of Pride and LGBTQ issues in general.
I know, no one here has lambasted me for not liking the jersey, but I just feel like I want to be crystal clear that my opinion is on the actual jersey and nothing to do with the cause or other positions that might be somewhat linked!
... it's because the birds aren't stupidly balancing on a football, isn't it?
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I don’t know. Personally if you have a belief about something, right or wrong it should be spoken about. There may be valid points or points to refute but being silenced is such a poor precedent these days. Then people start doing things for face value while holding feelings and beliefs quietly instead of having them challenged. I have no skin in this game but man I really don’t like the idea of people shut up just because. I just don’t see anything productive coming out of it.
Time and place. If you want to do that in the offseason, or the next road trip, fine. Just don't actively undermine the good that's being done and / or celebrated on that particular night by making yourself the focus of all the media questions and all the articles and all the discussions. I mean I wish I could prevent the media from writing these boring, same-####-different-day stories but they know what will get them clicks and they're simply going to do it, and those media outlets are outside of anyone's control so it's on the team to control what they can control and draw the line where they can draw it.
If there's one thing hockey players are known for it's not putting themselves before the team... except, apparently, in this one narrow circumstance.
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The cynical position is so ####ing lazy and counter-productive.
Nobody is saying the NHL deserves a standing ovation here. They can and should do more, but every journey starts with a small step.
I would say talking about of both sides of your mouth is counter productive.
Making a big deal out of Pride Night while at the same time actively working to make sure the Hockey Canada scandal is not going to come to light is the definition of counter productive.
Like I said, without Rick Westhead beating down doors to expose the story, the public would have no idea that any of this was going on.
I would say it is quite obvious that the NHL & people within the NHL circle of power are trying to make sure that none of allegations come to light.
I would say talking about of both sides of your mouth is counter productive.
Making a big deal out of Pride Night while at the same time actively working to make sure the Hockey Canada scandal is not going to come to light is the definition of counter productive.
Like I said, without Rick Westhead beating down doors to expose the story, the public would have no idea that any of this was going on.
I would say it is quite obvious that the NHL & people within the NHL circle of power are trying to make sure that none of allegations come to light.
To the bolded, it’s not.
To the rest, it’s being discussed in the thread dedicated to it, and has literally nothing to do with the Flames hosting their own Pride night, so insisting on derailing the discussion from it seems malicious.
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I would say talking about of both sides of your mouth is counter productive.
Making a big deal out of Pride Night while at the same time actively working to make sure the Hockey Canada scandal is not going to come to light is the definition of counter productive.
Like I said, without Rick Westhead beating down doors to expose the story, the public would have no idea that any of this was going on.
I would say it is quite obvious that the NHL & people within the NHL circle of power are trying to make sure that none of allegations come to light.
TBH I don't really see what Pride and Child Molestation have to do with one another.
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TBH I don't really see what Pride and Child Molestation have to do with one another.
For what it's worth I don't think that allusion was what was intended.
I think they were pointing out the need for an intersectional approach to changing hockey culture.
But like Torture said above, it's not a reason to not do Pride night. I also don't think Azure is doing whataboutism to deflect from Pride.
It's just a lot easier to rainbow wash the league with stuff like this, while you have a misogynistic culture leading to a coverup of sexual assault in Hockey Canada.
But again, like was stayed before, it has to start somewhere.
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Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
I would say talking about of both sides of your mouth is counter productive.
Making a big deal out of Pride Night while at the same time actively working to make sure the Hockey Canada scandal is not going to come to light is the definition of counter productiveunrelated
Like I said, without Rick Westhead beating down doors to expose the story, the public would have no idea that any of this was going on.
I would say it is quite obvious that the NHL & people within the NHL circle of power are trying to make sure that none of allegations come to light.
You're kinda all over the place here. The NHL and Blackhawk's terrible handling of their scandal might be a bit closer to the point, but even it is pretty tangential to pride.
There are numerous reasons to criticize the NHL are its franchises. Pride nights simply aren't one of them.
Hockey culture has many problems (not unique in that regard, but very important in the Canadian context). Like pretending gay people do not exist and do not participate in sports and ignoring the casual stigmatization that has been so pervasive for so long. Changing these things is going to be frustratingly slow. Pride nights aren't going to do much, but they are certainly a step in the right direction.
There is no winning here...you can criticize anybody for doing too little or too much or only doing self-serving things all you want. But what do you actually want here?
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I would say talking about of both sides of your mouth is counter productive.
Making a big deal out of Pride Night while at the same time actively working to make sure the Hockey Canada scandal is not going to come to light is the definition of counter productive.
Like I said, without Rick Westhead beating down doors to expose the story, the public would have no idea that any of this was going on.
I would say it is quite obvious that the NHL & people within the NHL circle of power are trying to make sure that none of allegations come to light.
Pride night has SFA to do with the Hockey Canada abuse. Homophobes can’t resist linking LGBTQ to sexual abuse.
The NHL needs to do more around the Hockey Canada. But it definitely shouldn’t stand in the way of encouraging queer people to play and watch hockey or make efforts to stop homophobia in the game.
But likely less so than you think. I wasn't intending to say that not wearing a pride jersey is a hate crime. But pushing back on the idea that it's 'group think' to acknowledge that folks are welcome in Hockey.
A lot of the folks here that think there is forced diversity or whatever may not be the ones who followed my friend and I last summer yelling slurs at us from their truck, my friend and I not knowing how it would escalate,
but citing reasons you don't want to acknowledge folks are welcome, in my opinion you're enabling and emboldening those that feel we're not welcome.
For me, there is a direct line that ends in violence. Which is only magnified and even more dangerous when you talk about the misogyny within our broader culture and it's direct line to violence against women.
EDIT: Adding more
When this whole discussion first came up I did my darndest to meet folks where they're at, to share my perspective. Essentially to live my values. This whole discussion has taken a todl on my personally, as a queer person, who isn't fully out to everyone I know because of safety or other concerns. It's been the first instance since I chose to drive back deep into my love of hockey that's made me question if it's worth it. I didn't even last a full season of me wondering if it's worth it. Some of the views expressed in this thread have down more harm to that than how depressing the Flames themselves have been
I am sincerely sorry if I caused you to question your welcome in hockey. You are absolutely welcome and I would love to sit beside you at the dome to cheer on the Flames. I hope your decision to dive back into your love of hockey stays till the end of this season and extends beyond.
