[PGT] Flames 0 - Wild 3

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Inferno

The last two games have been a good example of what's wrong with the team even when they get good goaltending. Both opposing goalies were let off the hook. Other than the Toffoli breakaway I really didn't think they any of their chances were dangerous. And it was embarrassing for a team fighting for their lives.

Last year, The team was saved by the incredible 1st line and a hot Mangiapane (40 games)

This replacement failed miserably. Rest of team actually performed as expected except maybe Lindholm

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The team is cursed. The goaltending struggles all year, only to start to right itself just when the rest of the team throws in the towel, emotionally.

The entire season has been a pass-the-baton situation of problems. Each time one improves or gets corrected, a new one pops up

Yeah. Beyond frustrating

Boston effort for three nights and they are 2-0-1 with improved markstrom and on the Jets tails

[Burning Beard]

.887 save percentage for the team this year. Below the Blue Jackets, Ducks, Canadiens, Coyotes, Hawks and Flyers. Think about that for a second.

It's super frustrating that when Markstrom comes around the season is pretty much toast and the team disappeared but the goaltending is the big story of the season.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The gap isn’t as big between those statements as you think it is if you can manage to point out things that aren’t his fault but can’t bring yourself to identify anything that is.

Seriously, how do we hold him accountable in any way? You can’t trade everyone but why would you when almost everyone else is doing well under Sutter? I’m fine with criticizing Sutter or cutting him loose entirely, as at least that’s something different, but I’m just searching for someone to explain why Huberdeau gets a free pass or, if we are allowed to criticize him, what criticisms people think are valid?

The responses to criticism or Huberdeau are either to blame Sutter entirely, or some vague “maybe Huberdeau shares some of the blame but we can’t begin to speculate on how we should go about assigning it.” Doesn’t make sense to me.

Yes, the gap is large.

I have never said we shouldn't hold him accountable. However, there are a lot of posters that are calling him garbage and blaming the struggling offense on him.

I think it is difficult to separate things. His confidence is currently shot. How much of that is because of the way Sutter has handled him? Impossible to say. How much is the result of him and Kadri not being on the same page? Impossible to say. How much is it pressure that he is putting on himself? Impossible to say.

What I am saying is that I think he'll be better next year, with a reset. We'll see, anyway. And he is going to be here for a long time - I can't imagine his contract is very tradable for a few years at least. Conversely, Sutter will not be here that long, and IMO, they are oil and water. So if I'm the Flames, I am looking at choosing between my best player, who is going to be here for a long time, and the coach, who isn't, it's an easy choice.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The gap isn’t as big between those statements as you think it is if you can manage to point out things that aren’t his fault but can’t bring yourself to identify anything that is.

Seriously, how do we hold him accountable in any way? You can’t trade everyone but why would you when almost everyone else is doing well under Sutter? I’m fine with criticizing Sutter or cutting him loose entirely, as at least that’s something different, but I’m just searching for someone to explain why Huberdeau gets a free pass or, if we are allowed to criticize him, what criticisms people think are valid?

The responses to criticism or Huberdeau are either to blame Sutter entirely, or some vague “maybe Huberdeau shares some of the blame but we can’t begin to speculate on how we should go about assigning it.” Doesn’t make sense to me.



“Was called out and proven false”? For one, who cares? If you think it’s baloney move along. But if you don’t then two, who did he play with the other 30%? Ghosts? And what about the guy who plays on the other side of Kadri? Or is it just 70% with one guy and that’s it?

He’s had multiple games with everyone and has done nothing with it. It doesn’t really matter how long the stretches were, he’s made everyone worse. Lindholm/Toffoli got better without him. Mangiapane got better without him. Backlund/Coleman got better without him.

Who are having career years or even playing well under Sutter? Kadri? Lindholm? Mangiapane? Markstrom? Hanifin? Weager? Like it is not a huge group that are playing above average this year under Sutter outside Backlund and Toffoli. Dube is having a better year as a 24 year old than he did as a 23 year old, which seems like a reasonable progression.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

The gap isn’t as big between those statements as you think it is if you can manage to point out things that aren’t his fault but can’t bring yourself to identify anything that is.

Seriously, how do we hold him accountable in any way? You can’t trade everyone but why would you when almost everyone else is doing well under Sutter? I’m fine with criticizing Sutter or cutting him loose entirely, as at least that’s something different, but I’m just searching for someone to explain why Huberdeau gets a free pass or, if we are allowed to criticize him, what criticisms people think are valid?

The responses to criticism or Huberdeau are either to blame Sutter entirely, or some vague “maybe Huberdeau shares some of the blame but we can’t begin to speculate on how we should go about assigning it.” Doesn’t make sense to me.



“Was called out and proven false”? For one, who cares? If you think it’s baloney move along. But if you don’t then two, who did he play with the other 30%? Ghosts? And what about the guy who plays on the other side of Kadri? Or is it just 70% with one guy and that’s it?

He’s had multiple games with everyone and has done nothing with it. It doesn’t really matter how long the stretches were, he’s made everyone worse. Lindholm/Toffoli got better without him. Mangiapane got better without him. Backlund/Coleman got better without him.

He's made everyone worse? Can you actually prove that?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, the gap is large.

I have never said we shouldn't hold him accountable. However, there are a lot of posters that are calling him garbage and blaming the struggling offense on him.

Hard not to when you look at the team on an individual to individual level and the only players that are major outliers compared to their career averages are Huberdeau and the goaltenders. He puts up even average numbers and we’re in the mix. I don’t actually know how you can call him anything but garbage this year or blame the struggling offence on anyone else when everyone else is contributing at (at very least, and in most cases a lot more) an acceptable level.

I agree that dropping Sutter is easier, no question. But he’s working for everyone else and I don’t think anyone would argue we’ve somehow been so lucky that we end up with bad coaches far more than good ones. If you swap the coach to appease Huberdeau and it makes every other aspect of the team worse, is that worth it? Because then we’re right back to “fire everyone,” no?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Hard not to when you look at the team on an individual to individual level and the only players that are major outliers compared to their career averages are Huberdeau and the goaltenders. He puts up even average numbers and we’re in the mix. I don’t actually know how you can call him anything but garbage this year or blame the struggling offence on anyone else when everyone else is contributing at (at very least, and in most cases a lot more) an acceptable level.

I agree that dropping Sutter is easier, no question. But he’s working for everyone else and I don’t think anyone would argue we’ve somehow been so lucky that we end up with bad coaches far more than good ones. If you swap the coach to appease Huberdeau and it makes every other aspect of the team worse, is that worth it? Because then we’re right back to “fire everyone,” no?

Working for everyone else? mang is awful, Markstrom is putrid, Lindholm is set for a 50% drop in goals scored, Kadri fell of a cliff scoring wise from last years Hanifin is worse, Weagar is a poorer player. You don’t need a lot of fingers to count the guys Sutter is working out with.

[Flamesfan05]

If rest of the team is performing as expected and only Huberdeau is the problem then the team is simply not good enough

Can’t expect Huberdeau to make up the difference even if he performed better

Team is lacking a couple key players

Blame Treliving on how this team is built

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

He's made everyone worse? Can you actually prove that?

My perception, which is worth very little. Have no idea if the stats follow but I would be surprised if they don’t.

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Working for everyone else? mang is awful, Markstrom is putrid, Lindholm is set for a 50% drop in goals scored, Kadri fell of a cliff scoring wise from last years Hanifin is worse, Weagar is a poorer player. You don’t need a lot of fingers to count the guys Sutter is working out with.

So every guy should be expected to have career years or match career years every year? You’re setting yourself up for some extreme disappointment.

Lindholm is going to end up close to his second best season, as is Kadri. That’s while Lindholm loses two 100 point players to play with and Kadri went from a Stanley Cup winner to a team well out of it.

These stats I’ve actually looked up, and to say everyone, the majority, or even more than a handful of guys are producing poorly is complete nonsense unless your expectations are completely divorced from reality.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

If rest of the team is performing as expected and only Huberdeau is the problem then the team is simply not good enough

Can’t expect Huberdeau to make up the difference even if he performed better

Team is lacking a couple key players

Blame Treliving on how this team is built

So who are these guys that are having great years outside of Toffoli and Backlund?

The defence is a mess. The forward lines are a mess. The goalies are a mess.

It's not just Huberdeau.

Darryl Sutter seems checked out.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

If rest of the team is performing as expected and only Huberdeau is the problem then the team is simply not good enough

Can’t expect Huberdeau to make up the difference even if he performed better

Team is lacking a couple key players

Blame Treliving on how this team is built

I think the GM did just fine. Blame sits on the head coach, his belief in an antiquated game model, caveman player tactics, total lack of being some/any form of professional. My question is...if Sutter stays who in the group asks for a trade first and did the Flames dedication to the head coach help make certain decisions for certain players to move on? Can't remember the timing of the Sutter extension vs the decision made by JG and Tkachuk to get out of Dodge. Good luck in bringing in talent....really, who in their right mind would come north to play for this fool.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Yikes

I think the GM did just fine. Blame sits on the head coach, his belief in an antiquated game model, caveman player tactics, total lack of being some/any form of professional. My question is...if Sutter stays who in the group asks for a trade first and did the Flames dedication to the head coach help make certain decisions for certain players to move on? Can't remember the timing of the Sutter extension vs the decision made by JG and Tkachuk to get out of Dodge. Good luck in bringing in talent....really, who in their right mind would come north to play for this fool.

Not saying it's all his fault, but Treliving knew what kind of coach Sutter was coming in this season. I know there have been multiple posters who have pointed out that the team he built is not a team to do well in the style of player Sutter demands.

Not going to assign blame percentage-wise, but if your coach's system demands a certain type of player, and acquire different types of players, doesn't that mean the person who built the team shares some blame too?

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

So who are these guys that are having great years outside of Toffoli and Backlund?

The defence is a mess. The forward lines are a mess. The goalies are a mess.

It's not just Huberdeau.

Darryl Sutter seems checked out.

Offensively, if you look at their numbers, who do you think can do better?

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by Ped

Not saying it's all his fault, but Treliving knew what kind of coach Sutter was coming in this season. I know there have been multiple posters who have pointed out that the team he built is not a team to do well in the style of player Sutter demands.

Not going to assign blame percentage-wise, but if your coach's system demands a certain type of player, and acquire different types of players, doesn't that mean the person who built the team shares some blame too?

Except for the fact it’s widely known/speculated that Sutter wasn’t Brads choice but pushed by ownership/Edwards.

That quashes this whole theory.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My perception, which is worth very little. Have no idea if the stats follow but I would be surprised if they don’t.



So every guy should be expected to have career years or match career years every year? You’re setting yourself up for some extreme disappointment.

Lindholm is going to end up close to his second best season, as is Kadri. That’s while Lindholm loses two 100 point players to play with and Kadri went from a Stanley Cup winner to a team well out of it.

These stats I’ve actually looked up, and to say everyone, the majority, or even more than a handful of guys are producing poorly is complete nonsense unless your expectations are completely divorced from reality.

Lindholm’s second best season is 78 points and 29 goals, he will not end up anywhere near that. Do I think players in the prime of their career should be within striking distance of their top seasons, sure, yes I do. And by that metric the Flames have a number of players that are underperforming, the majority of their top 9 and their top 4 dman and their goalies.

And you clearly have not “looked up” the stats unless you actually think in the final 19 games Lindholm is going to get 12 goals and 17 assists for 29 points to be close to his second best season.

Mangiapane on pace for his worst goals per game season in the last 4 years, within striking distance of having his worst points per game in the last 4 years.

Markstrom’s worst season as a pro.

There are a number of players playing at or just slightly below their expected average and 4 players (Lindholm, Huberdeau, Mangiapane and Markstrom) who are absolutely putrid. Sutter is getting the best out of almost nobody and is getting average out of very few.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Offensively, if you look at their numbers, who do you think can do better?

Sutter hockey is where talented, creative, fast, fun to watch, have fun on the ice players go to die. As mentioned before by not just me, Sutter is the dude that would force Doug Flutie into the pocket, cuz, you know....ball control.

[NewFan]

I think they should have traded Huber this trade deadline. Like for Josh Andersson MTL. They may think Huber can get better playing home and eastern conference.
My problem with Huber is that he is the worst player in his line.
I can understand that if his line mates make more mistakes or miss his passes than I would say his needs a different players.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by NewFan

I think they should have traded Huber this trade deadline. Like for Josh Andersson MTL. They may think Huber can get better playing home and eastern conference.
My problem with Huber is that he is the worst player in his line.
I can understand that if his line mates make more mistakes or miss his passes than I would say his needs a different players.

I don’t see it that way at all.

Kadri is the worst player on that line in my eyes. Huby has set him up gloriously all season with very little success from Kadri’s end. Kadri can carry the puck through the neutral zone, but he’s a shoot first player and seems more tuned to gain the line and take a shot from distance than to get the puck to either of his linemates so that they can help set up a shot of quality.

Huberdeau and Pelletier are both actively looking to make plays when they have the puck while Kadri’s goal seems to be just fling it at the net from a distance and hope.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Yikes

Sutter hockey is where talented, creative, fast, fun to watch, have fun on the ice players go to die. As mentioned before by not just me, Sutter is the dude that would force Doug Flutie into the pocket, cuz, you know....ball control.

Yes but look at this team’s talent. Who can do better?

Lindholm? He can if you can find a superstar to carry him

Mangi? I doubt it. He is what he is now. He just lucked out 40 games

Huberdeau and Weegar are the only ones that severely underperforming offensively