US police kills twice as many people as reported

[Mr.Coffee]

If you think about it, bring a cop these days in todays NA context, would be a very difficult occupation. Kind of because of their own doing, or maybe one of those situations where a few rotten apples taints the group, but ya- being a cop now would not be easy.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

If you think about it, bring a cop these days in todays NA context, would be a very difficult occupation. Kind of because of their own doing, or maybe one of those situations where a few rotten apples taints the group, but ya- being a cop now would not be easy.

And also pretty thankless

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

And also pretty thankless

I hate to harp on and on about it, but if you promote an 'Us vs. Them' mentality via 'The Thin Blue Line' then there arent a lot of other people to point at in terms of blame for making every simple interaction into a confrontation.

Police are largely not viewed as individuals but rather as a cohesive, unified group, hence why the 'Few Bad Apples' defence typically fails to hold water.

Anyways, this isnt the thread for that, we were discussing the understatement of the number of people the Police claim to kill and the sweet wrap job on a Ford Edge.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

And also pretty thankless

Just a guess, but could be because of all that murdering innocent minorities business.

[Street Pharmacist]

I'm not saying there aren't legitimate reasons for the public sentiment to be where it is, just pointing it out

[btimbit]

Nvm, unrelated dumb rant

[Snuffleupagus]

Cops are no different than anyone else, 9/10 are good but that 1/10 get all the talk for being idiots.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Cops are no different than anyone else, 9/10 are good but that 1/10 get all the talk for being idiots.

Well, they are though. I’d feel like I was being condescending if I added details to this…

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Cops are no different than anyone else, 9/10 are good but that 1/10 get all the talk for being idiots.

Cops are very different from everyone else. As Locke pointed out, it is a cultural thing with most police services. They recruit a bunch of extreme type A
personalities who have authoritarian tendencies, give them training which relies on violence for problem resolution, arm them to the teeth, and give them qualified immunity for their actions. What outcome do you expect?

The problem with cops is they "police" matters, and "enforce" the law, rather act as peacekeepers. If they would hire people who have empathy and understand how to communicate - actually listen and speak to find resolution - rather than relying on their gun or taser to enforce their will, they would have a much better reputation and be better at their jobs. The reason cops have a bad reputation is because the larger percentage of them are obnoxious alpha types who scare the public rather than being approachable and affable to deal with. Their reputation is well earned but most if has developed over decades of bringing the wrong type of person into the fold and then training them to be use force at the first sign of conflict.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Cops are very different from everyone else. As Locke pointed out, it is a cultural thing with most police services. They recruit a bunch of extreme type A
personalities who have authoritarian tendencies, give them training which relies on violence for problem resolution, arm them to the teeth, and give them qualified immunity for their actions. What outcome do you expect?

The problem with cops is they "police" matters, and "enforce" the law, rather act as peacekeepers. If they would hire people who have empathy and understand how to communicate - actually listen and speak to find resolution - rather than relying on their gun or taser to enforce their will, they would have a much better reputation and be better at their jobs. The reason cops have a bad reputation is because the larger percentage of them are obnoxious alpha types who scare the public rather than being approachable and affable to deal with. Their reputation is well earned but most if has developed over decades of bringing the wrong type of person into the fold and then training them to be use force at the first sign of conflict.

Do you mind sourcing some of this? Specifically:

1) (recruit) personalities who have authoritarian tendencies, give them training which relies on violence for problem resolution.

2) give them qualified immunity for their actions.

3) If they would hire people who have empathy and understand how to communicate - actually listen and speak to find resolution - rather than relying on their gun or taser to enforce their will.

4) The larger percentage of them are obnoxious alpha types who scare the public rather than being approachable and affable to deal with.

5) training them to be use force at the first sign of conflict.

From everything I have read, most of this is the exact opposite, specifically regarding recruiting and training. I think there has been a substantial shift in both those areas and rightfully so.

Maybe it is different in the US and I certainly don't disagree that such a profession could certainly attract a certain personality but I don't think "larger percentage" is justified by ANY research I have seen.

I am interested in "peacekeeper" idea. Can you define that? What does that look like in the real world? At a domestic for example. How does applying criminal law (or any other law/bylaw) work with a peacekeeper?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Cops are very different from everyone else. As Locke pointed out, it is a cultural thing with most police services. They recruit a bunch of extreme type A
personalities who have authoritarian tendencies, give them training which relies on violence for problem resolution, arm them to the teeth, and give them qualified immunity for their actions. What outcome do you expect?

The problem with cops is they "police" matters, and "enforce" the law, rather act as peacekeepers. If they would hire people who have empathy and understand how to communicate - actually listen and speak to find resolution - rather than relying on their gun or taser to enforce their will, they would have a much better reputation and be better at their jobs. The reason cops have a bad reputation is because the larger percentage of them are obnoxious alpha types who scare the public rather than being approachable and affable to deal with. Their reputation is well earned but most if has developed over decades of bringing the wrong type of person into the fold and then training them to be use force at the first sign of conflict.

There is simply so much disinformation, generalization and flat out BS in this post that I don’t even know where to start…

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Cops are no different than anyone else, 9/10 are good but that 1/10 get all the talk for being idiots.

Sure but 10% of cops are costing peoples lives and safety is a big deal. It isn't doing admin work slowly or mixed up a McDonalds order.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

There is simply so much disinformation, generalization and flat out BS in this post that I don’t even know where to start…

Even though you guys both have your biases I’ve learned a lot from your and Captain Otto’s posts, so why don’t you start at the start? If it educates someone a little bit then it’s probably worth your time, even if you aren’t going to convince the person you’re responding to.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Even though you guys both have your biases I’ve learned a lot from your and Captain Otto’s posts, so why don’t you start at the start? If it educates someone a little bit then it’s probably worth your time, even if you aren’t going to convince the person you’re responding to.

Thanks for this. One reason why I shy away from it is because of some of the personalities on this board. Tbh, it generally degrades to the stuff Lanny posted and it all seems pretty hopeless and unfixable.

Edit - despite all that, I still see value. It's a much longer response than I have time for right now though.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Thanks for this. One reason why I shy away from it is because of some of the personalities on this board. Tbh, it generally degrades to the stuff Lanny posted and it all seems pretty hopeless and unfixable.

Edit - despite all that, I still see value. It's a much longer response than I have time for right now though.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Totally understandable. And I don’t mean to say you guys should feel obligated to respond to anything or anything like that, but just know that even if the person isn’t speaking up at the time, it is being read and listened to by someone, so it’s rarely if ever a waste of time.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I’d love to have a few pints with you to discuss the above because writing a post will just result in a wall of text. All I’ll say is this, in my 20 years of service I’ve seen policing advance beyond my wildest dreams. When i started we arrested people for possessing a joint, now as of Jan 31 people can possess 2.5 grams of whatever they want. Prostitution has evolved from pimps and hookers to sophisticated human trafficking organizations. People with mental health issues used to just spend the day or night in cells, now they’re being linked up with community outreach, case workers or mental health professionals at hospitals.

Let me preface this with saying you sound like you're one of the good ones and it is not my intent to diminish that or your colleagues, but aren't these advances in politics, moreso than in policing? If you accept that these are political gains, then it would seem like the best way to advance policing to is be political and lobby for progressive legislation. Do many police support the politicians that are advancing causes like decriminalization of marijuana?

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Even though you guys both have your biases I’ve learned a lot from your and Captain Otto’s posts, so why don’t you start at the start? If it educates someone a little bit then it’s probably worth your time, even if you aren’t going to convince the person you’re responding to.

Thanks Pepsi, I appreciate your post.

Cops are very different from everyone else.

- Not sure how I’m “very” different from everyone else. Seems like an attempt to dehumanize someone because of their job.

As Locke pointed out, it is a cultural thing with most police services. They recruit a bunch of extreme type A personalities who have authoritarian tendencies, give them training which relies on violence for problem resolution, arm them to the teeth, and give them qualified immunity for their actions. What outcome do you expect?

- the psychological screening, background checks and personal reference checks are designed to weed out those who have authoritarian tendencies. Those that somehow make it through even having those tendencies are (from my experience) ostracized and shunned. No one wants to get jammed up in an internal investigation because some jack ass decides to punch someone who’s cuffed or some other idiotic action. They usually don’t last that long in the outfit. However I concede that there those that do and they cause us nothing but grief and headaches both internally and in the public’s opinion.

Our training is not to rely on violence for resolving issues. Literally the first method of intervention on the IMIM (incident management intervention model) which is used as a guide for various levels of resistance etc is officer presence. Then verbal intervention, after that the level of intervention varies to the situation. Crisis intervention and de-escalation training is mandatory and requires to be completed annually, same with other mandatory training for mental health awareness training. I’m not sure what Lanny is referring to when he mentions qualified immunity for their actions, 5 Mounties just got charged last week for their actions, obviously they will have their day in court but they certainly aren’t getting away with anything.

The problem with cops is they "police" matters, and "enforce" the law, rather act as peacekeepers. If they would hire people who have empathy and understand how to communicate - actually listen and speak to find resolution - rather than relying on their gun or taser to enforce their will, they would have a much better reputation and be better at their jobs.

- there are times the laws must be enforced, there are times when there is no time to talk or to try and de-escalate. However the vast majority of the times this is not the case and things are de-escalated without any force being used. I don’t have the exact statistics at this moment but I believe that something like 98% of police/public interactions in Canada result in no force being used at all, how many interactions are there per day? Certainly thousands.

The reason cops have a bad reputation is because the larger percentage of them are obnoxious alpha types who scare the public rather than being approachable and affable to deal with. Their reputation is well earned but most if has developed over decades of bringing the wrong type of person into the fold and then training them to be use force at the first sign of conflict.

- I’d really like Lanny to quantify the percentage of how many police are obnoxious alpha types, I’m curious as to how he arrived at this conclusion. Again, the formal training standard and courses teach exactly the opposite of what Lanny is alleging. Even on my time on the Emergency Response Team (equivalent of US SWAT) de escalation and peaceful resolution was always the goal despite often facing armed and dangerous individuals who had committed violent acts or presented an immediate risk of harm to the public.

Incidents like those in Memphis are despicable and unfortunately cause an upswell in anti-police sentiment. I don’t begrudge the common person for having those feelings initially, but I do find it exhausting when assumptions and emotion are presented as fact for every single police officer.

Oh well, the policeman’s lot is not a happy one!

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by SebC

Let me preface this with saying you sound like you're one of the good ones and it is not my intent to diminish that or your colleagues, but aren't these advances in politics, moreso than in policing? If you accept that these are political gains, then it would seem like the best way to advance policing to is be political and lobby for progressive legislation. Do many police support the politicians that are advancing causes like decriminalization of marijuana?

Thanks Seb I appreciate it. I guess the point I was trying to make is that we are simply an arm of the crown, things get criminalized, things get decriminalized or legalized and we go with the flow. Policing adapts to the laws of the land. Our investigative strategies changed when hard caps were set on the time from arrest to trial in R vs Jordan for example. Case law is constantly changing the way we do business. I’ve never heard of anyone being against the legalization of marihuana, the decriminalization of 2.5 grams of hard drugs is another story. Most officers I work with realize that simply jail is not the way to solve the opioid crisis, homelessness, uptick in violent crime etc, however rehab is. I don’t think it’s going to make a difference to overdoses or violent crime in its current form but that’s just my opinion which doesn’t matter so I follow what the law says.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

I don’t have the exact statistics at this moment but I believe that something like 98% of police/public interactions in Canada result in no force being used at all, how many interactions are there per day? Certainly thousands.

I can answer this a little bit, since it's something of interest to me that I keep some tabs on.

It's a bit difficult, because I can't/don't track actual 'interactions' of course, but I have some info on 'expected interactions'.

Calgary seems to maintain a rough rate of 1 call/request for service for police every minute. The number has fluctuated a bit over the last 7 years I've been watching it, but for the most part, saying that CPS have to attend 1 call/minute is decently accurate enough. So that'd be around 525,000 interactions/year. And that's just Calgary.

I was asked earlier this year if I knew about the stats for Toronto by a friend who lives there. I did some digging around, and found some news articles that said in the last 5 years, Toronto has averaged 5000 calls/day/year, which would come out to around 3.5 calls/minute. That totals out to 1,825,000 'expected interactions'.

So, between just two of the largest cities in Canada, there are roughly an expected 2,350,000 police/citizen interactions a year, which would be roughly 6,438/day.

Just some rough 'napkin math', if you will.

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Thanks Pepsi, I appreciate your post.

Cops are very different from everyone else.

- Not sure how I’m “very” different from everyone else. Seems like an attempt to dehumanize someone because of their job.

As Locke pointed out, it is a cultural thing with most police services. They recruit a bunch of extreme type A personalities who have authoritarian tendencies, give them training which relies on violence for problem resolution, arm them to the teeth, and give them qualified immunity for their actions. What outcome do you expect?

- the psychological screening, background checks and personal reference checks are designed to weed out those who have authoritarian tendencies. Those that somehow make it through even having those tendencies are (from my experience) ostracized and shunned. No one wants to get jammed up in an internal investigation because some jack ass decides to punch someone who’s cuffed or some other idiotic action. They usually don’t last that long in the outfit. However I concede that there those that do and they cause us nothing but grief and headaches both internally and in the public’s opinion.

Our training is not to rely on violence for resolving issues. Literally the first method of intervention on the IMIM (incident management intervention model) which is used as a guide for various levels of resistance etc is officer presence. Then verbal intervention, after that the level of intervention varies to the situation. Crisis intervention and de-escalation training is mandatory and requires to be completed annually, same with other mandatory training for mental health awareness training. I’m not sure what Lanny is referring to when he mentions qualified immunity for their actions, 5 Mounties just got charged last week for their actions, obviously they will have their day in court but they certainly aren’t getting away with anything.

The problem with cops is they "police" matters, and "enforce" the law, rather act as peacekeepers. If they would hire people who have empathy and understand how to communicate - actually listen and speak to find resolution - rather than relying on their gun or taser to enforce their will, they would have a much better reputation and be better at their jobs.

- there are times the laws must be enforced, there are times when there is no time to talk or to try and de-escalate. However the vast majority of the times this is not the case and things are de-escalated without any force being used. I don’t have the exact statistics at this moment but I believe that something like 98% of police/public interactions in Canada result in no force being used at all, how many interactions are there per day? Certainly thousands.

The reason cops have a bad reputation is because the larger percentage of them are obnoxious alpha types who scare the public rather than being approachable and affable to deal with. Their reputation is well earned but most if has developed over decades of bringing the wrong type of person into the fold and then training them to be use force at the first sign of conflict.

- I’d really like Lanny to quantify the percentage of how many police are obnoxious alpha types, I’m curious as to how he arrived at this conclusion. Again, the formal training standard and courses teach exactly the opposite of what Lanny is alleging. Even on my time on the Emergency Response Team (equivalent of US SWAT) de escalation and peaceful resolution was always the goal despite often facing armed and dangerous individuals who had committed violent acts or presented an immediate risk of harm to the public.

Incidents like those in Memphis are despicable and unfortunately cause an upswell in anti-police sentiment. I don’t begrudge the common person for having those feelings initially, but I do find it exhausting when assumptions and emotion are presented as fact for every single police officer.

Oh well, the policeman’s lot is not a happy one!

Not to jump into this whole debate but this is an American cop thread and I think there is a vast difference between Canadian and US police training. Hell, in some counties you can be a sheriff with little to no training. I am sure somebody here knows or has access to the videos but for decades US police forces around the country were literally taught how to kill. There was one guy that did thousands of seminars around the country that was very specific in how to kill people. Grossman I believe? It wasn't just methods but a way of thinking. They were taught to view interactions with certain types of people as life of death on first approach.