Did Sutter change the system?

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Just as the players are struggling, Sutter is struggling as much and maybe more. I'm not sure if he's ever experienced this type of face lift on a core he's coached from one year to the next, but IMO he's handled it extremely poorly. From line combos, to ice time deployment, to weird comments in the media, to goalie usage, to not giving young players who are preforming in the AHL a legit look, it just all seems like a gigantic mess. We all knew he was a pretty stubborn coach, but his ability to adapt seems to be lacking mightily. Maybe over the long term this is the correct course of action but in the short term he looks lost.

Agree with all of this. The whole thing has looked strange, and Sutter's reactions to on and off-ice situations have been questionable.

A very weird year.

[Yikes]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Agree with all of this. The whole thing has looked strange, and Sutter's reactions to on and off-ice situations have been questionable.

A very weird year.

Very grumpy old man.

[Jiri Hrdina]

####er
weird.

[Spinach]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Keep in mind as well Sutter was brought in specifically for the previous core not this massive change in core. 4 of those guys are gone.

Treliving said that the team at the time needed Darryl those specific players.

He just may not be a fit for this particular group he has right now.

If that's the case, giving him an extension before finding that out was less than prudent.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I think it might be. At the very least, beyond that timeframe, it diminishes significantly - short of somebody like Zary or Pelletier going Tage Thompson on us.

The difference between watching the Flames over the last 7-8 years vs. now is there was a sense they were building toward something — now, they're clearly on the backswing, and the longer it takes for them to get into gear, the greater the chance of the bottom falling out entirely. Particularly when the new wave of talent in the system doesn't seem cut out for the current coach.

[badradio]

A lot of good observations in this thread.

I agree with Cecil that the system did change to one where a talentless roster can grind out wins, last year maybe it was the same system, but either they had more rope, or the top players just didn’t listen and did what they wanted? I don’t know.

Seems like Sutter is trying to force point shots, shots volume, dump and chase puck retrieval instead of players carrying in, short passes, making the safe plays to try and inch out wins.

His lineups and roster usage made sense last year, other than overplaying markstrom, but this year he seems like he’s trying to send messages instead of playing the best players.

In the end, it’s boring hockey even if it wins games, the product isn’t very entertaining to watch.

(Sometimes I wonder though if Sutter is pulling the old rope-a-dope where we squeak in the playoffs and then unleashes his true system lol!)

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Yikes

Sutter has Jonathan Quick to thank for his cups and Kipper to thank for "the run"...period.

Lol what a terrible post

[Mathgod]

Can't multiple things be true at the same time? Sutter is a great coach, but has made some questionable decisions this season.

Look, the Flames have picked up 15 of a possible 22 points over their last 11 games despite continuing to miss Kylington, and their goalie giving up some soft ones lately. Seems like a strange time to be pointing fingers at Darryl for things not going as perfectly as we want them to. While it's true that Huberdeau should be given more freedom to do what he has excelled at throught his NHL career, I wouldn't go as far as to say that Sutter has changed his system from last year or that it's not working. With Gully or Ward coaching this group, these guys are probably 8-10 points or more out of a playoff spot.

Huge changes were made to the core and they're 42 games into the transition period. It's going to take more time for these guys to really get gelling. It'll happen at some point. They already seem to be playing better now than they did 20-25 games ago. Look for more improvement throughout the 2nd half of the season.

To me the bigger story is goaltending. When the team feels it can't trust its goalie to make a big save, it starts playing more scared and conservative, absolutely terrified of turning the puck over, resulting in risk-free hockey, which doesn't lend itself toward generating high-quality chances. In my opinion, solid, consistent goaltending is what opens the team up to playing more assertive, high-tempo hockey, and generating more scoring chances. Whether this team gets said quality goaltending will ultimately determine their fate, IMO.

[Kasi]

The recent results are good no doubt but this was the “soft” part of the schedule where the Flames were supposed to climb back in to the top 3 in the division. Yet the Flames are still sitting outside that and now looking at the upcoming schedule the soft part has gone away and we have to play our bubble competition or the actual playoff locks. Now part of this is out of the Flames control since one didn’t expect with good points in ten games that we wouldn’t gain ground on Seattle or LA. But it’s no surprise people are a bit worried about the teams playoff chances now.

[Mathgod]

^ and yet, with the sheer magnitude of changes in the offseason and the required transition period, it's a minor miracle that this team is even in a playoff spot.

LA and Seattle keep winning; it's not something within the Flames' control.

Flames strength of remaining schedule still looks pretty favorable. According to moneypuck they still have an 85.9% chance of making the playoffs.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

^ and yet, with the sheer magnitude of changes in the offseason and the required transition period, it's a minor miracle that this team is even in a playoff spot.

LA and Seattle keep winning; it's not something within the Flames' control.

Flames strength of remaining schedule still looks pretty favorable. According to moneypuck they still have an 85.9% chance of making the playoffs.

I had much higher expectations when the season started.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

The difference between watching the Flames over the last 7-8 years vs. now is there was a sense they were building toward something — now, they're clearly on the backswing, and the longer it takes for them to get into gear, the greater the chance of the bottom falling out entirely. Particularly when the new wave of talent in the system doesn't seem cut out for the current coach.

It does seem like this year and next year are probably the high water mark for this group. Then they will start to fall off. Still in the playoff race though, 9th best winning percentage in the western conference.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by zamler

I had much higher expectations when the season started.

I think we all knew there would be a transition period. What we weren't expecting is Markstrom's struggles combined with Kylington being unavailable to the team.

[dino7c]

If LA and Seattle keep winning it means somebody is losing...Flames have gained ground on 13 of the 16 teams in the west over the last month.

If the division winner and the second place team are within a few points of eachother it's really not a huge advantage to take a divisional spot over a WC. Heck the division winner might get the Avs in round one lol

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

I think we all knew there would be a transition period. What we weren't expecting is Markstrom's struggles combined with Kylington being unavailable to the team.

The problem I have with any transition period talk is the fact it should be more like 10 games, not 42. And it’s not over yet. It’s 42 and counting.

It also gives me PTSD because transition period was the mantra in Brent Sutter’s first season. It was all we heard for months. Give him time, let the players adapt, it’s a process blah, blah, blah.

Then we realized it wasn’t a transition period and that the results were the results.

And that’s the scary part. What if this isn’t a transition? What if this is it? It’s horrifying.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by dino7c

If LA and Seattle keep winning it means somebody is losing...Flames have gained ground on 13 of the 16 teams in the west over the last month.

If the division winner and the second place team are within a few points of eachother it's really not a huge advantage to take a divisional spot over a WC. Heck the division winner might get the Avs in round one lol

https://puckprose.com/2022/12/14/dec...day-12-14/amp/

The Flames have lost ground to 6 teams, been better than 8 teams (mainly non-playoff teams) and treaded water with one team in the last month.

Since December 14th the Flames are 3 games above .500.

Since that date the following teams are better or the same

Stars - 5 games above .500
Jets - 3 games above .500
Wild - 4 games above .500
Preds - 5 games above .500
Blues - 5 games above .500
Kings - 7 games above .500
Kraken - 5 games above .500

If every month 7 teams are better than you and the team that is currently 9 games farther above .500 (Vegas) you only game one game on, it will be tough to make up much ground. Flames have gained ground on 2 playoff contending teams that they could beat (the Oilers and if you actually think it is possible for them to beat them for a playoff spot, the Avs). They have lost ground to 5 teams that should be theoretically beatable in the standings (Kings, Kraken, Blues, Preds, Wild), lost or treaded water to two teams they almost certainly cannot catch (Stars and Jets) and made ground on a team they cannot catch (Vegas). They are generally going in the wrong direction.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Is that based on overall points earned?

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is that based on overall points earned?

That is based on games above .500, the only way you can really judge a period of time where one team may play 16 games and one may play 11. I would say the team who played 11 games and went 8-3 made ground up on the team that played 16 games and went 9-7.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is that based on overall points earned?

For points, the Flames have 16 points in that time period.

The following teams have the following point totals in that time period

stars - 17
Jets - 16
Wild - 16
Preds - 17
Blues - 18
Kraken - 17
Kings - 19

Either way you cut it the Flames have put themselves in a worse position (points or games above .500) in the last month.

[Mr.Coffee]

The reason for todays discussions are because of a loss in Chicago that should have been a win and a loss in St.Louis that really should have been a win. That moves you to 17/22 pts and for the Flames literally every point matters. So when you watch Kadri dog it in period 3 and Huberdeau just give the puck away in OT, and then Kadri with a semi-lazy back check in OT, yeah, obviously, it’s not what it should or could be and it is a repeating pattern and cause for concern at game 41. We don’t have the luxury of asking these legitimate questions at game 65 because by that point the season truly is likely over.

The Flames have to beat the Blues and Avs to make playoffs which will not be easy. At all.