Flames Mount Rushmore Round Three

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by rogermexico

I started following the Flames in 86 during that first cup run. I was nine. I'd watched hockey before that but it was those playoffs that turned me into a fan.
Over the next few years I remember getting excited about Joe Nieuwendyk's rookie season, loving Hakan Loob, obviously loving Lanny, and then of course the big thrill of the 89 playoffs.
Through all of that time though, Al MacInnis was my hands down favourite player.
People talk a lot about "game breakers." Chopper was a game breaker. He could take over a game. That 89 team had, what, four hall of famers on it? Plus guys like Vernon and Mullen who have a case to be in there? MacInnis was the best of them all, hands down. The 89 playoff performance was unreal.
I know that he ended up in St. Louis and settled down there and is part of the organization. But he was here for 11 seasons. If Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque hadn't been doing there thing, he'd have been a multiple Norris winner during that time. But Norris trophies don't count as much as Conn Smythes, and he's got that one - the only one a Flame ever won. Chopper absolutely belongs on that mountain.

Haha actually this rings quite true for me too! I remember playing street hockey and who didn’t dream of teeing off the tennis ball and breaking the glass behind the net like Big #2 did!… thankfully I never did break windows like he broke hockey rink glass - but boy oh boy did that ever make you want to learn how to do slapshots like him!

[powderjunkie]

I think it's really really really difficult to parse the 2nd tier of all-time great defensemen.

Orr and Lidstrom (+Harvey and Shore) are generational (Tier 1).

Then Ray Bourque has to be at/near the very top of the next tier, but I think it's pretty tough to rank (in roughly chronological order):

Robinson
Potvin
Coffey
MacInnis
Chelios
Stevens
Blake
Pronger
Niedermayer
Chara
Keith
Weber
Doughty
Hedman
Makar


Then there are a bunch of guys who might be worthy of that tier, but probably nowhere near the top of it:

Park
Murphy
Salming
Langway
Housley
Leetch
Gonchar
Zubov
Burns
Letang
Gio
Karlsson
Pietrangelo
Josi

That's 30 guys including Bourque, though I'm sure I'm missing a few (Horton? Lapointe? Serge Savard? Suter(s)?). I think you could probably parse those 30+ into Tiers 2-4, but Chopper is almost certainly in Tier 2, and IMO it's not crazy to have him near the top of it.

Robinson/Potvin/Coffey are tough to place because they were [important] parts of dynasties. Swap MacInnis (or most of the other guys above for that matter) into their place and I'm not sure how much anything changes. MacInnis was probably a baby-step behind Potvin/Coffey offensively, but he was probably a full-step ahead of them defensively.

Another strong argument for MacInnis is how strong he remained on both sides of the ice into the twilight of his career (though this is muddied by playing with Pronger). IMO he's easily Top 10 since expansion, and I don't think it's crazy at all to have him top-5, though I think pretty much any combination for #4-10 could be valid)

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Hadta vote Vernon for 3.His play in the Cup run cannot be overstated. Calgary boy playing the top of his game and winning the Cup. Seeing a lot of recency bias for Kipper (tho I fully understand why he's getting so many votes)

[looooob]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I think it's really really really difficult to parse the 2nd tier of all-time great defensemen.

Orr and Lidstrom (+Harvey and Shore) are generational (Tier 1).

Then Ray Bourque has to be at/near the very top of the next tier, but I think it's pretty tough to rank (in roughly chronological order):

Robinson
Potvin
Coffey
MacInnis
Chelios
Stevens
Blake
Pronger
Niedermayer
Chara
Keith
Weber
Doughty
Hedman
Makar


Then there are a bunch of guys who might be worthy of that tier, but probably nowhere near the top of it:

Park
Murphy
Salming
Langway
Housley
Leetch
Gonchar
Zubov
Burns
Letang
Gio
Karlsson
Pietrangelo
Josi

That's 30 guys including Bourque, though I'm sure I'm missing a few (Horton? Lapointe? Serge Savard? Suter(s)?). I think you could probably parse those 30+ into Tiers 2-4, but Chopper is almost certainly in Tier 2, and IMO it's not crazy to have him near the top of it.

Robinson/Potvin/Coffey are tough to place because they were [important] parts of dynasties. Swap MacInnis (or most of the other guys above for that matter) into their place and I'm not sure how much anything changes. MacInnis was probably a baby-step behind Potvin/Coffey offensively, but he was probably a full-step ahead of them defensively.

Another strong argument for MacInnis is how strong he remained on both sides of the ice into the twilight of his career (though this is muddied by playing with Pronger). IMO he's easily Top 10 since expansion, and I don't think it's crazy at all to have him top-5, though I think pretty much any combination for #4-10 could be valid)

^^ where is Hall of Famer Kevin Lowe?
there is a tier of 80s guys missing there I guess- including Mark Howe, Doug Wilson, SARGE


pre-expansion sure I don't know how to rank Horton, Howell, Pilote . Laperriere circa expansion

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well I said 20 to 25 so let's keep it real.

If you only want to look at offense, where would he rank? Maybe 4 or 5? Behind Orr, Coffey, Bourque and Potvin? Maybe even Karlsson?

Defensively speaking he might be underrated, but he's also not in the group with Lidstrom, Harvey, Shore, Robinson, Niedermayer, Chelios and many others.

Like the greatest players he could play both ends of the ice and he was a great, great player. He'd be close with Brad Park, one of my all time favorites.

I suspect if I did a list he'd be around 20. Hard to compare to previous era but can't ignore players who were widely recognized as the best in the game.

Would you put him ahead of Langway?

Do a list. I'd be interested to see who the ~20 d-men you'd rank ahead of him.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Kipper

MacInnes is not close to top 5 IMO (which is not a slight on him in any way)

Don't know how anyone can say he "isn't close" to top 5. He was a huge part of the cup team. He also stayed with the team until 1994. 11 full seasons. He was the franchise's leading scorer when he left.

The only knock against him is that he finished his career elsewhere.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by blankall

Don't know how anyone can say he "isn't close" to top 5. He was a huge part of the cup team. He also stayed with the team until 1994. 11 full seasons. He was the franchise's leading scorer when he left.

The only knock against him is that he finished his career elsewhere.

I was referring to those saying he is one of the top 5 defensemen of all time

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I was referring to those saying he is one of the top 5 defensemen of all time

I mean do your list showing that he's "not close" to being top 5 all time.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by blankall

Don't know how anyone can say he "isn't close" to top 5. He was a huge part of the cup team. He also stayed with the team until 1994. 11 full seasons. He was the franchise's leading scorer when he left.

The only knock against him is that he finished his career elsewhere.

I know this isn't really what you mean, but an interesting separate exercise is confining only to players who did end their career as a Flame (this is still a Flame performance list so Jagr doesn't count)


I'm guessing Lanny, Loob, Vernon, Kipper ( the others I can think of Peplinski, Conroy, Backlund- for now)


if it was only Flames even harder Peplinski, Loob, Backlund, Andersson?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by looooob

I know this isn't really what you mean, but an interesting separate exercise is confining only to players who did end their career as a Flame (this is still a Flame performance list so Jagr doesn't count)


I'm guessing Lanny, Loob, Vernon, Kipper ( the others I can think of Peplinski, Conroy, Backlund- for now)


if it was only Flames even harder Peplinski, Loob, Backlund, Andersson?

Bit of an arbitrary restriction IMO. Guys like Peplinski and Loob also had really short NHL careers. Loob went home to Sweden immediately after winning the cup. Hard to say he had any more loyalty than a guy like McInnis, who stuck around until 1994, through at least some of the bad years.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by blankall

Bit of an arbitrary restriction IMO. Guys like Peplinski and Loob also had really short NHL careers. Loob went home to Sweden immediately after winning the cup. Hard to say he had any more loyalty than a guy like McInnis, who stuck around until 1994, through at least some of the bad years.

oh I totally get that- I wasn't meaning we should do it like this, or that you were implying that either- just playing around with what would be a pretty tough exercise


(I've voted for #2 since round 2 anyways)

[dino7c]

I voted for Vernon but will accept the results of the election

[FlamesAddiction]

I went with Kiprusoff. It's pretty much a toss-up for me between like 4 or 5 others, so I just went with my heart.

Really tempted to pick Otto actually.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by looooob

^^ where is Hall of Famer Kevin Lowe?
there is a tier of 80s guys missing there I guess- including Mark Howe, Doug Wilson, SARGE


pre-expansion sure I don't know how to rank Horton, Howell, Pilote . Laperriere circa expansion

Those 80s guys (except Lowe of course) could definitely be in that Gonchar/Zubov tier...not sure any would have a claim to the top 20(ish).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny'sDaMan

Hadta vote Vernon for 3.His play in the Cup run cannot be overstated. Calgary boy playing the top of his game and winning the Cup. Seeing a lot of recency bias for Kipper (tho I fully understand why he's getting so many votes)

I’ve got no recency bias. Kipper was just a better goalie than Vernon. And while Vernon was lights out brilliant in the cup run, he was also really mediocre from then on (as a Flame). Kipper never cost a deciding PO game that I can recall. Vernon - maybe three.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’ve got no recency bias. Kipper was just a better goalie than Vernon. And while Vernon was lights out brilliant in the cup run, he was also really mediocre from then on (as a Flame). Kipper never cost a deciding PO game that I can recall. Vernon - maybe three.

Playoffs

43 wins 33 losses 1 cup

Vs

24 wins 28 losses 0 cups

[FlamesAddiction]

When I think of a "Mount Rushmore", I don't necessarily think of who was better, but rather who represents or identifies with the team the most. Vernon was as much of a Red Wing as he was a Flame IMO. Outside of Calgary, a lot of hockey fans probably think of Detroit when they think of Vernon. Same thing goes with MacInnis. One of my favourite Flames of all time, but he is at least as much a symbol for the Blues.

Kipper played briefly for the Sharks early in his career, but everyone associates him with the Flames. No one thinks of Kiprusoff, the former Shark.

I suppose Otto is remembered as much for being a Flyer as a Flame, but at least he settled in Calgary after and has been involved in hockey locally. MacInnis to his credit, did play in a Flames alumni game.

Sutter has been with 4 teams, but I think most people think of the Flames when they think of Sutter, so he is a good candidate. Roberts became a bit of a journeyman, but I think he is still mostly associated with the Flames.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Kipper over Vernon is pretty easy in my mind. I was around for both, so it isn't discounting the old guys. Vernon was great in 89, but overall just wasn't as good as Kipper in my opinion.

For me, Mr. Rushmore would need to be around 10 deep before Vernon makes it. Looks like Iggy, Lanny and Kipper are in. MacInnis, Fleury, Gio would be my next 3. Then the next tier I think you would need to consider Gaudreau, Vernon, perhaps Backlund or Niewy.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by calgaryred

Playoffs

43 wins 33 losses 1 cup

Vs

24 wins 28 losses 0 cups

How many of Kipper’s losses were on a shot from the outside in a deciding game?

Vernon played on stacked teams, including a lot of guys mentioned for Mount Rushmore. Kipper had Iggy.

[flambers]

I voted for MacInnis,

Powerplay was absolutely feared,

MacInnis broke 100 point mark one season, which is amazing.