Flames Mount Rushmore Round Three

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by looooob

I've decided to go players only, suspect that is where the vote will fall


(a non player Rushmore might be a fun 2nd game- I'd be hard pressed between Cliff, Badger, Sutter, Bearcat, Maher, Whelan and Hotchkiss)


anyways I've already made my thoughts known on MacInnis- controversial opinion I don't expect anyone else to share but in terms of on ice performance with the Flames I think the gap is narrower between MacInnis and Iggy than it is between MacInnis and the next tier

Yeah this is me too. I can't past it enough to vote for Chopper.
I voted for Cliff. The architect of the championship team and responsible for the majority of the players from that era that we all remember and love.

But I realize in doing so that basically means my vote is a throwaway.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

MacInnis appears to be up there on the all time forum misspelling list with the likes of Hanifin, Bouwmeester, McElhinney, and Cammalleri. That has to count for something.

I think Tifolli and Regher ranks up there too!

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Al MacInnes is the best d-man to ever play for this team, and he played for a really long time, 803 games.

You might vote for others for other reasons, but objectively, he is the best. He is probably a top-5 defenseman of all time to be honest.

This is why I keep voting for MacInnis. He was a top 5 D-man for all time.
The same cannot be said for anyone else who played a meaningful amount of time for the organization.

The fact that he still the organization's all time assist leader, as a defenseman, shows that he was an elite player on the team for quite a while.

He was the most instrumental player on the cup winning team, and he's the biggest reason the Flames were elite in the 80s (other than Fletcher).

Finally, MacInnis has 102 playoff points for the Flames. That's the highest by a huge margin - it's nearly as many as Fleury and Iginla combined.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Hilarious to say Kipper didn't accomplish much, his arrival turned us into a playoff team. Without him this team probably would have been in shambles missing the playoffs annually. Iginla, Kipper and Sutter turned the fortunes of the team.

Fleury played on a stacked all star team to win a cup and on his own was leading the charge for save our flames campaign.

[rogermexico]

I started following the Flames in 86 during that first cup run. I was nine. I'd watched hockey before that but it was those playoffs that turned me into a fan.
Over the next few years I remember getting excited about Joe Nieuwendyk's rookie season, loving Hakan Loob, obviously loving Lanny, and then of course the big thrill of the 89 playoffs.
Through all of that time though, Al MacInnis was my hands down favourite player.
People talk a lot about "game breakers." Chopper was a game breaker. He could take over a game. That 89 team had, what, four hall of famers on it? Plus guys like Vernon and Mullen who have a case to be in there? MacInnis was the best of them all, hands down. The 89 playoff performance was unreal.
I know that he ended up in St. Louis and settled down there and is part of the organization. But he was here for 11 seasons. If Paul Coffey and Ray Bourque hadn't been doing there thing, he'd have been a multiple Norris winner during that time. But Norris trophies don't count as much as Conn Smythes, and he's got that one - the only one a Flame ever won. Chopper absolutely belongs on that mountain.

[kermitology]

I voted Vernon. Fleury's cemented his legacy as a crackpot. He deserves nothing.

[kipperiggy]

Based on the prelim comments I am surprised Vernon has so few votes so far.

[GreenLantern]

Kipper for me. Top goalie to ever wear the Flames jersey. Stood on his head to give this team and the fans one of the most memorable cup runs in the history of the NHL.

Then stuck around after and dominated until he just wanted to go fishing.

If he didn't get such a late start in his career he would have a spot in the HOF.

[HighLifeMan]

Objectively speaking I just don't see much of a debate for Vernon over Kiprusoff, other than a disallowed goal keeping his name off of the cup.

Kiprusoff played more games, had more wins, won a Vezina, and is still the franchise leader in all statistical categories. Simply put he was the better goaltender in comparison to his peers. Vernon had just one top ten finish in terms of SV % during his tenure here while Kiprusoff had 5. He was the best goaltender in the world for a 2-3 year period, which was never the case for Vernon.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

This is why I keep voting for MacInnis. He was a top 5 D-man for all time.
The same cannot be said for anyone else who played a meaningful amount of time for the organization.

The fact that he still the organization's all time assist leader, as a defenseman, shows that he was an elite player on the team for quite a while.

He was the most instrumental player on the cup winning team, and he's the biggest reason the Flames were elite in the 80s (other than Fletcher).

Finally, MacInnis has 102 playoff points for the Flames. That's the highest by a huge margin - it's nearly as many as Fleury and Iginla combined.

You're the second poster to say this. Do you really believe this to be true?

IMO he's not even top 10, or close. I can buy top 25.

Orr, Harvey, Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin, Robinson - he is nowhere these guys. Stevens, Niedermayer, Park etc. same thing.

Chopper was a great player, I'm not selling him short. But top 5 in the history of the game?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by looooob

these are good points. I'm not saying he should be on Rushmore, but Joey Mullen was a really famous and popular name around town during the cup 'era' on either side of 89 (well mostly the run up I guess)

I'll never forget Joey Mullen arriving.

I turned 16 six days before the trade. Took my my driver test and passed the day that Mullen first played for the Flames. Came in all excited and my mom wasn't there. Dad home early from work with the news that she had cancer.

Off to the hospital, then the game ...

Mullen scores a goal and adds two assists in a 7-2 win over the Kings.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Objectively speaking I just don't see much of a debate for Vernon over Kiprusoff, other than a disallowed goal keeping his name off of the cup.

Kiprusoff played more games, had more wins, won a Vezina, and is still the franchise leader in all statistical categories. Simply put he was the better goaltender in comparison to his peers. Vernon had just one top ten finish in terms of SV % during his tenure here while Kiprusoff had 5. He was the best goaltender in the world for a 2-3 year period, which was never the case for Vernon.

Playoffs are what make goalies Vernon has that over Kiprusoff, and not just in 1989.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You're the second poster to say this. Do you really believe this to be true?

IMO he's not even top 10, or close. I can buy top 25.

Orr, Harvey, Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin, Robinson - he is nowhere these guys. Stevens, Niedermayer, Park etc. same thing.

Chopper was a great player, I'm not selling him short. But top 5 in the history of the game?

He's 3rd all-time in NHL points for a defensman.

Has a Conn Smythe (Bourque doesn't, Coffey doesn't)

Renowned slap shot, great at both ends of the ice.

I never gave it much thought till now but I suppose I'd go with Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnes.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He's 3rd all-time in NHL points for a defensman.

Has a Conn Smythe (Bourque doesn't, Coffey doesn't)

Renowned slap shot, great at both ends of the ice.

I never gave it much thought till now but I suppose I'd go with Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnes.

This would be my top 5 as well, and in the same order.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You're the second poster to say this. Do you really believe this to be true?

IMO he's not even top 10, or close. I can buy top 25.

Orr, Harvey, Lidstrom, Bourque, Potvin, Robinson - he is nowhere these guys. Stevens, Niedermayer, Park etc. same thing.

Chopper was a great player, I'm not selling him short. But top 5 in the history of the game?

he's not a top 5 d-man. IMO (as a fan) he's easily top 25 and probably in that 10-20 range. I'm not sure why he's not in the same conversation as Stevens, Niedermayer and Park ( for example)


Stevens and MacInnis are direct contemporaries (they were junior teammates)

Hard to compare as their styles were different but one was feared for their hitting, the other for their slapshot but both were much more than that


each won a Conn Smythe. MacInnis also won a Norris. MacInnis was a 7 time post season all star, Stevens 5 times


Stevens is 13th all time for NHL plus minus, MacInnis is 16th


(the D ahead of both of them are Robinson, Orr, Bourque, Savard, Potvin, Lidstrom, SARGE and M Howe). Brad Park is right behind them both


Stevens is under-rated as an offensive Dman but MacInnis put up >300 more points, MacInnis is under-rated as a defensive D (at least he was while in Calgary)

[looooob]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He's 3rd all-time in NHL points for a defensman.

Has a Conn Smythe (Bourque doesn't, Coffey doesn't)

Renowned slap shot, great at both ends of the ice.

I never gave it much thought till now but I suppose I'd go with Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Coffey, MacInnes.

I love MacInnis, but I'd have to bump Coffey and Chopper for at least Potvin and Robinson


I don't know how to move in guys like Harvey and Shore, eras are too different

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by kermitology

I voted Vernon. Fleury's cemented his legacy as a crackpot. He deserves nothing.

To me, the "Mount Rushmore" is the best of the best, not just on the ice but also off. It is the absolute pinnacle and in order to reach those lofty heights, it's not good enough just to be a great player, but you also have to be part of the community and still have ties to the team.

With that in mind I went with Vernon too.

He was basically the 2nd best goalie in the NHL for his first stint with the Flames, behind Fuhr and then Roy. He was the Flames undisputed starter for, I believe, the longest stretch in franchise history. He won the Cup with the Flames (and then some more with Detroit) and it could easily be argued (and it was) that he should have won the Conn Smythe. He is a proud alum, participates in team events and lives in Calgary. He is also from Calgary and played all of his minor hockey in Calgary included in Major Junior.

The others I considered were:

• Kiprusoff- Was arguably the best goalie in the NHL with the Flames although he never won the Cup* (it was in!). He ultimately didn't stay that long and other than the one playoff run, didn't accomplish much. He also hasn't really been part of the franchise or community since he left.
• MacInnis- Was the best defenseman in franchise history although only Giordano won the Norris with the Flames. He spent half of his career elsewhere and retired as a Blue. He seems to consider himself a legacy Blue moreso than a legacy Flame, and as far and I know, he doesn't participate in any alumni events.
• Fleury- Great player but a terrible representative of the team and community.

[rogermexico]

I'd put MacInnis right at number ten all time, after Orr, Lidstrom, Bourque, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, Park, and Coffey (in something like that order.) To me he's just ahead of a tier of guys like Pronger, Stevens, Niedermayer, Chelios, Savard, and Leetch.
But heck, even if you rank him behind those names, we're still talking about a top twenty all time player at the position, who played here for more than 800 games, which included a Conn Smythe for the franchise's only cup.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'll never forget Joey Mullen arriving.

I turned 16 six days before the trade. Took my my driver test and passed the day that Mullen first played for the Flames. Came in all excited and my mom wasn't there. Dad home early from work with the news that she had cancer.

Off to the hospital, then the game ...

Mullen scores a goal and adds two assists in a 7-2 win over the Kings.

my memory is the night of the trade. the Flames played that night and my dad picked me up at the Ctrain afterwards


Dad "The Flames just acquired Mullen"


Looooob "for who"


"Beers, Bourgeois, Cavallini.."


"and who else?"


"no-one else in fact we got some other guys too"


both "diabolical laughter"

[Howie_16]

I voted Vernon. Beat the Oilers in 86. Saved our Cup win in game 7 against Vancouver.