[News] Flames recall Phillips

[FBI]

He hasn’t been given a chance to succeed yet. THAT’S the problem. Give him NINE games with decent icetime and decent linemates. IF he sucks, then denote him. At least we gave him a fricken chance then.

[Kasi]

Even if Phillips is too small or not skilled enough or whatever that’s just a symptom of how this team handles prospects. They have shown a historic tendency to bury their picks even their high picks in the AHL and prefer to fill out their bottom six through other means. Usually meh contracts, trading away more picks or just signing an endless stream of has been filler. Other teams around the league however draft players and promote them quick and a lot of them actually become valuable NHL players rather quickly.

So really no matter how you phrase this (Flames don’t draft good enough, they don’t develop good enough, they don’t promote well enough, they don’t value their own picks enough and keep trading it away for filler) the end result is the same. The Flames get very little contribution from their draft compared to other teams. Sutter I think makes this worse with how hard he is on rookies but this I think is more a Trev thing. He’s been trading away 2-4 round picks for years for marginal players and the draft/development he is ultimately responsible for as GM.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I doubt there's any team in the league that would call up "the AHL's leading scorer" and insert him directly on the first line. There is plenty of history to support these vaunted AHL scorers being inserted on the lower lines, especially guys that are D+7. Let's not make this seem like the Flames are sitting on Shane Wright here, or any first or second year pro who has high expectations of being a player. This is tiny (not small) 24 year old who is in his 5th pro season. Expectations need to be tempered here. The Flames know what they have in this player and are handling him the same way every other team in the NHL would.

I don't remember saying to insert him directly on the 1st line, all I said was why call him up just to sit in the press box? it's ridiculous.

[Backstop]

The AHL is arguably similar in player size as the NHL (lots of big grinders). Phillps has excelled in the AHL playing among those big bodies, his size is not holding him back.

Can he think, play and contribute at the NHL pace is the focal question that should be addressed by giving him real TOI rather than simply saying nope, too small.

At this point what is the downside, anemic offense, already have that, no chemistry, already have that, failure to play the system, already there.

[boogerz]

If we look at other players that are the same height and weight as Phillips:

Cam Atkinson had four points in his first 21 games before he exploded
Kailer Yamamoto only had one goal in his first 26 games
Jared Spurgeon took about 43 games before he adjusted to the NHL

Even Mangiapane took 20-something games to record his first point, and Dube only had three points in his first 17 games. There's a very good chance that Mangiapane doesn't become an NHLer if Sutter is at the helm.


Small guys need time to figure out how to adjust their game and leverage their strengths at the NHL-level.

Even in his rookie AHL season, Phillips took 2-3 dozen games to figure how to be effective at the pro-game before he exploded. If the Flames are going to give him a legit chance (even if it's only 7-10 games), he absolutely needs to be on the ice and getting game action in the NHL instead of sitting in the press box or being stapled to the bench.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Teams put prospects in positions to succeed immediately all the time. Cole Caufield. Alex DeBrincat. Hell, Cale Makar was right out of College when he immediately replaced Tyson Barrie on the Avs. We do not lose the Avs series if the Avs had a double standard for prospects.

The way the Flames have handled Ruzicka, Kylington, Bennett, Phillips, etc is pretty isolated to the Flames. Just double standards applied for their mediocre favourites versus guys stuck in an endless cycle of "can't prove it until you prove it but not allowed to prove it because you have not proven it"

And don't give me that BS about Phillips being an older prospect. He's been deserving better since his initial callup back in spring 2021. And that's only because he had a major injury in 2020 just as he was earning a callup.

The Flames refused to play Phillips and Kylington in meaningless games because the Flames did what the Flames do, which is value Nikita Nesterov types for no justifiable reason and write books on players who have never had a chance to even fail.

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I don't remember saying to insert him directly on the 1st line, all I said was why call him up just to sit in the press box? it's ridiculous.

A whole bunch of ridiculous in this post. Comparing a 6th round pick to a 4th overall pick who dominated at every level he was at is just flat out ridiculous. Every team in the NHL would have inserted Makar directly into the NHL, no questions asked. Phillips? Evey team in the NHL would pass on him and let him play in the AHL. Every. Single. One. Phillips is not an NHL player by any stretch of the imagination. He needs to blow people's minds to get over the hump of being a sideshow act. He needs to dominate every time he's on the ice. Every practice, he has to be the best player on the ice at everything the coach throws at the team. Every shift he has to stand out in a good way. Until he does that, he's an AHL player and will be until he proves otherwise.

Originally Posted by boogerz

Even in his rookie AHL season, Phillips took 2-3 dozen games to figure how to be effective at the pro-game before he exploded. If the Flames are going to give him a legit chance (even if it's only 7-10 games), he absolutely needs to be on the ice and getting game action in the NHL instead of sitting in the press box or being stapled to the bench.

Phillips did not take 2-3 dozen games to figure anything out and EXPLODE. He took three-four SEASONS before he exploded into a one way scoring forward at the AHL level. That's three to four YEARS of play. This wasn't something where he figured things out quickly, this was a player that needed to develop his game. He went from 148th, to 106th, to 70th, to 9th, then to the leading scorer in the first 20 games of his 5th season. This was not exploding on the scene. This was a long development path and it took a lot of time for him to find his way to being a scorer in the AHL.

Like it or not Phillips is a player that has a very short leash. Sutter knows what he has in him and can only play him in certain situations. His size makes him easy to dominate in a physical game and his mediocre positional play (and that is being generous) means he is not going to help out in his own zone. His gap control is terrible which is why he is being force fed offensive zone starts and 2nd unit PP time. He is a player that needs to prove value as a PP specialist before he'll be given any chance elsewhere in the lineup. He needs to score, or he doesn't play. And getting a chance is happening each and every practice. If he doesn't impress, then he's not getting an opportunity to play a regular shift.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Backstop

The AHL is arguably similar in player size as the NHL (lots of big grinders).

They're similar in size, but not in skill, which is why they're not in the NHL themselves.

[Snuffleupagus]

Lanny dislikes Phillips as much as he loves Aliens and UFO's

[Kasi]

I feel like focusing on Phillips is missing the forest for the trees. Phillips making or not making it is just one piece in the puzzle that is the flames minor league system and their utilization of it.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I feel like focusing on Phillips is missing the forest for the trees. Phillips making or not making it is just one piece in the puzzle that is the flames minor league system and their utilization of it.

On the other hand you could be exhibiting confirmation bias and seeing things that you think support your firm view that the Flames don't give prospects a chance.

People have provided valid counterpoints to that position that you seem to have largely dismissed.

[Kasi]

Yeah and plenty of flames writers like Kent Wilson and Mike Gould and others have stated things that hold a bit more weight to me. I find the excuses given on these forums to be a bit hollow. Like I said up thread regardless of the reason (lack of picks, bad drafts, bad development, bad promotion strategies) at the end of the day the Flames are seeing very little from their recent drafts. If the Flames want to be better they need their young players especially their first and second rounders to have an impact at the NHL level.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

On the other hand you could be exhibiting confirmation bias and seeing things that you think support your firm view that the Flames don't give prospects a chance.

People have provided valid counterpoints to that position that you seem to have largely dismissed.

Admittedly not having read every point or counter point, I would just outright reject anyone saying the Flames have an issue graduating prospects. It’s a quality issue, not a progression issue.

Dube, Mangiapane, Andersson, Kylington, Ruzicka… all young homegrown prospects playing a regular role right now. And that’s after losing Tkachuk, Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, and Rittich in just the last year and a half.

If it’s less than other teams it’s because the quality has been lower than other teams. There are no guys knocking down the door waiting for a chance, they don’t have to. Once guys have earned it they get a shot to earn a regular role.

People are full of baloney. Phillips not immediately getting a full time, locked down spot is because he hasn’t earned it. The players that do earn it seem to do pretty decently in the NHL, and there are far fewer stories of Flames prospects who go on to make another team.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Kasi

Yeah and plenty of flames writers like Kent Wilson and Mike Gould and others have stated things that hold a bit more weight to me. I find the excuses given on these forums to be a bit hollow. Like I said up thread regardless of the reason (lack of picks, bad drafts, bad development, bad promotion strategies) at the end of the day the Flames are seeing very little from their recent drafts. If the Flames want to be better they need their you fling players especially their first and second rounders to have an impact at the NHL level.

LOL just want to congratulate Scorp on going from the guy people once yelled at for making too many threads to the guy people now use as an appeal to authority for Flames topics.

Truly a CP great.

[Kasi]

Well if it’s a quality issue that is still a Flames issue. Saying we don’t have a problem promoting but have a problem drafting is not a very convincing argument. Trev at the end of the day is responsible for that. Maybe don’t trade away a bunch of picks for crap players like Pittlick, Lazar and Hamonic. So this means players like Zary and Pelletier aren’t quality?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Kasi

Well if it’s a quality issue that is still a Flames issue. Saying we don’t have a problem promoting but have a problem drafting is not a very convincing argument. Trev at the end of the day is responsible for that. Maybe don’t trade away a bunch of picks for crap players like Pittlick, Lazar and Hamonic. So this means players like Zary and Pelletier aren’t quality?

Maybe they aren’t. Every team has guys like them, and on every team but bottom feeders and teams with too much locked up in the top line (us next year), those prospects are making their way in the AHL. It’s not like Zary or Pelletier have a history of incredible success down there, they’ve had their ups and downs.

I’m willing to buy the idea that they don’t draft enough players. Hell, I’ll sell you that idea. But it’s bogus to suggest they have a problem with promoting guys. And just as you have trouble with things you find “a bit hollow,” though, I’m having a little trouble taking you seriously if you’re going to tell me that a team that has promoted almost every good prospect they’ve had in recent history suddenly has a problem with it because you have one guy you don’t think is getting a fair shake. Who are you to say anyway?

[Kasi]

No I don’t care that much about Phillips. I’m somewhat fine with Lannys argument since I don’t honestly think Phillips is going to have an NHL career. I have more of an issue that they’ve not promoted anyone they’ve drafted since 2018. That’s some fundamental problem regardless of which problem it is. Point for me is they’re not going to be a good NHL team if they can’t draft and promote good players. Clearly there is an issue right now with the team in that regard.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Lanny dislikes Phillips as much as he loves Aliens and UFO's

It ain't a matter of hating Phillips, it's a matter or understanding the potential of him becoming an NHL player. Like Phillips, and finding intelligent life at your family reunion, it is very small.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Kasi

No I don’t care that much about Phillips. I’m somewhat fine with Lannys argument since I don’t honestly think Phillips is going to have an NHL career. I have more of an issue that they’ve not promoted anyone they’ve drafted since 2018. That’s some fundamental problem regardless of which problem it is. Point for me is they’re not going to be a good NHL team if they can’t draft and promote good players. Clearly there is an issue right now with the team in that regard.

That’s a pretty weightless statement though. You think it’s an issue, but you can’t actually figure out what the issue is, so… what? Do you think they’re the only team that hasn’t? If so, why do you think it is?

Making the conclusion from that fact that “they can’t draft and promote good players” is really meaningless. There might be an issue regarding drafting good players, but that issue might be as simple as “not drafting enough.” You haven’t made a single case for any clear issue.

[Kasi]

Well if it’s not drafting enough that is also their problem to fix since they keep trading draft picks away for marginal players. My point is good teams that win tend to win with homegrown talent. In the end that is satisfied by having players you draft in the league. I and many think the team has an issue giving opportunities to young talent. You’ve gone and said here they just don’t draft well. Bingo said in another thread they don’t draft enough because they lack picks. All of these could be sources of the problem which is not enough players in the big league club. I think they should work on likely fixing all of those. I would hope any big sports team is always looking to improve their pipeline and that is rarely a single point of failure.

How about they stop trading draft picks for filler players, work on better scouting to identify nhl calibre players, work on improving development to enable the players to succeed and enable some sort of system that gives young players a chance to make the big league team instead of being told like Zary that on merit they deserved to be there but were sent down because of contract reasons. (Aka signing too many marginal crap players)

[mile]

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