Too early to panic about Markstrom

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Your constant responding to me in an antagonistic tone every time I say or do something you don't like, suggests that you probably do care.



If I have to explain to you why it isn't, this whole conversation is probably pointless.

Careful. Just because it was a depleted lineup, does not mean that there weren't quality shots directed at Markstrom. If you are going to play this game, do it a little more accurately.

It is reasonable to assume that, given a reasonable sample size, a depleted lineup would provide a lesser test than a healthy NHL lineup. However, it is not reasonable to assume that yesterday's game is not evidence. He made several good saves - that is the only evidence that I saw from Philly.

Also, that is not the only data we have - he played well in Florida, and against Wpg. The other games were more debatable, but I think there is a fair bit of evidence that he is trending in the right direction, and playing better than he was earlier.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Your constant responding to me in an antagonistic tone every time I say or do something you don't like, suggests that you probably do care.



If I have to explain to you why it isn't, this whole conversation is probably pointless.

It seems like it’s actually I who has to explain why it might be evidence to you. Adding in to what Enoch said, a “depleted lineup” only tells us that the chances of quality chances and shots being generated are probably going to be lower than if the team had all of its stars playing. Thankfully, hockey isn’t a predetermined thing, so we can actually just watch the game and see what actually happens. In the game, Markstrom avoided a soft goal and made the kind of saves you hope for, so yes, that could be evidence he is turning it around. The game before, his gaffe was a puck playing one (not a soft goal) so that’s another possible piece of evidence.

Now, that doesn’t mean he IS turning around. But if he does, it’s definitely evidence of it. If he doesn’t, it was just a blip of higher quality goaltending. Obviously we’re all hoping it’s the former, right?

And trust me, if I’m being antagonistic you’ll know it. You won’t have to feel around for the “tone.” We’re talking NHL goaltending here. It’s pretty light stuff that isn’t worth getting upset about.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

And yet, there's no clear evidence that I was wrong.

*SIGH*

Why is this hard for you? The question originally posed was, "Is it too early to panic about Markstrom?" To which, the answer is emphatically "Yes, it is absolutely too early to panic." This was the right answer two weeks ago. This was the right answer two days ago. This is the right answer now.

Your answer was the wrong one. "Panic" is never the appropriate response in this instance, and it is perplexing that I find myself in this position needing to explain as much, but, here we are.


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[dino7c]

many posters would rather see the Flames fail so they can be "right"

[bdubbs]

Markstrom will figure it out, or he won't and eventually he'll be out of the league. But the constant need to call each other out and make personal attacks as if 'winning' an argument on here is worth the pixels used is... mind blowing. Flames fans should hope Markstrom comes back to form, but if he doesn't, he's just another Flames goalie that was good that then became bad.

At least this time we have a goalie in Wolf to look forward to, but I suspect even that isn't enough for some people.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by dino7c

many posters would rather see the Flames fail so they can be "right"

I'm one of those weirdos that loves to be proven wrong. It's tough to learn anything if you're always right.

Which is why I tend to gravitate towards people smarter than me.

[Icantwhisper]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I'm one of those weirdos that loves to be proven wrong. It's tough to learn anything if you're always right.

Which is why I tend to gravitate towards people smarter than me.

You're in the wrong place

[Mathgod]

Let's see...

- Getting panic in the figurative sense (intensely worried/anxious that this could be another lost season due in large part to goaltending) confused with the literal sense (frantic screaming, throwing around objects, running in the streets, and whatever else).

- Making excuses for an .889 save % goaltender coming off a brutal playoff series. Ignore the numbers because oh look, he made a quality save here or there. And for some reason he deserves a free pass on goals where he mishandles the puck behind the net.

- Claiming that I want the team to fail, when I actually spend every moment of my existence hoping that they succeed.

The bottom line is this, if Markstrom doesn't soon get back to something close to what he showed last year sans the Edmonton series, and/or he collapses in the playoffs again, it's going to be another lost season while the team is in win-now mode. We're basically at the quarter pole of this season and he still hasn't shown me that the Edmonton series was an aberration and not indicative of the type of goaltender he really is. When you look at his body of work this season and compare it to goalies on other teams that have Cup aspirations, the contrast is quite stark.

My question to all of you is, if Marky doesn't turn things around, who does the team turn to for stability in net? Vladar is a solid backup but not starter material (his numbers this year are actually worse than Marky's), and Wolf is not yet ready to be the starting goalie for an NHL team (unless he's secretly a Price-level talent). No team can seriously compete for a Stanley Cup without decent goaltending. There's signs that, perhaps, we might not have it.

And to me, yes that does warrant some level of panic.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Wow, we're really grasping at straws here, aren't we?

- Getting panic in the figurative sense (intensely worried/anxious that this could be another lost season due in large part to goaltending) confused with the literal sense (frantic screaming, throwing around objects, running in the streets, and whatever else).

- Making excuses for an .889 save % goaltender coming off a brutal playoff series. Ignore the numbers because oh look, he made a quality save here or there. And for some reason he deserves a free pass on goals where he mishandles the puck behind the net.

- Claiming that I want the team to fail, when I actually spend every moment of my existence hoping that they succeed.

The bottom line is this, if Markstrom doesn't soon get back to something close to what he showed last year sans the Edmonton series, and/or he collapses in the playoffs again, it's going to be another lost season while the team is in win-now mode. We're basically at the quarter pole of this season and he still hasn't shown me that the Edmonton series was an aberration and not indicative of the type of goaltender he really is. When you look at his body of work this season and compare it to goalies on other teams that have Cup aspirations, the contrast is quite stark.

My question to all of you is, if Marky doesn't turn things around, who does the team turn to for stability in net? Vladar is a solid backup but not starter material (his numbers this year are actually worse than Marky's), and Wolf is not yet ready to be the starting goalie for an NHL team (unless he's secretly a Price-level talent). No team can seriously compete for a Stanley Cup without decent goaltending. There's signs that, perhaps, we might not have it.

And to me, yes that does warrant some level of panic.

But it doesn’t, because it’s hockey and as a fan you “panicking” in the figurative or literal sense has no effect on what occurs with the team. The only effect it has is a negative one on you.

Nobody is “grasping at straws.” Stop being so desperate to make this some serious debate. It’s not. It’s a casual conversation. If you care about winning it, go find a better hobby, or come back down to earth and discuss things like a human being. I don’t get why some of you guys get so worked up about hockey opinions. It’s for fun. It’s a game.

- “Making excuses for a 0.889% goaltender coming off a brutal playoff series”: Nobody is. We’re watching a player and seeing him play better and make less of the mistakes he was making earlier. Good things. A bad puck play behind the net is different than letting in a soft goal. One is something that doesn’t really happen to goalies on their game, the other is a mistake that can happen to any goaltender. “If I have to explain why…” etc.

- “Claiming that I want the team to fail, when I actually spend every moment of my existence hoping that they succeed”: You have a weird way of showing it but if that’s true good for you, as that’s a lot of time hoping for something. I also want the team to succeed, but people who panic/worry/are overly negative and look for the faults in everything tend to come off like they’re looking to have their negative prophecy fulfilled. Like, you may hope the Flames do well, but you’re probably so negative because at least you’ll feel better about having been right, right? Maybe whether you realise it or not. I’d rather hope the Flames do well and look like an idiot when they don’t. It’s a lot more fun.

- “he still hasn't shown me that the Edmonton series was an aberration”: Cool, again, it’s fine if he hasn’t shown you that. Maybe he has shown other people that, or maybe people see signs he’s on the right track at least. None of it weighs any more than anything else. Dismissing evidence that isn’t good enough to you doesn’t mean anything to anyone but you. And it’s fine if you want to share that, but categorizing other people’s opinions as “making excuses” is silly.

- “Marky doesn't turn things around, who does the team turn to for stability in net?”: No one from the looks of it. But he’ll probably turn it around and it’ll be too late for us if he doesn’t, so why worry? Maybe Wolf could surprise? But again, this is not reason to panic (which is always the wrong response). Best we can do is celebrate signs of life and hope he returns to form.

[dino7c]

He has won 4 of 5...surely your panic level is dropping lol

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Let's see...

- Getting panic in the figurative sense (intensely worried/anxious that this could be another lost season due in large part to goaltending) confused with the literal sense (frantic screaming, throwing around objects, running in the streets, and whatever else).

Yeah, no. Even a "figurative" sense of panic that you have described bespeaks the need for immediate—even drastic—change. If you are implying a different, incorrect usage of the word that is prone to misinterpretation, then that is on you.

The bottom line is this, if Markstrom doesn't soon get back to something close to what he showed last year sans the Edmonton series, and/or he collapses in the playoffs again, it's going to be another lost season while the team is in win-now mode.

No one disagrees about this, but we are a long, long ways from knowing the truth in any of this bleak narrative.

We're basically at the quarter pole of this season and he still hasn't shown me that the Edmonton series was an aberration and not indicative of the type of goaltender he really is. When you look at his body of work this season and compare it to goalies on other teams that have Cup aspirations, the contrast is quite stark.

Right, but none of that actually matters. Like, not at all. Markstrom could enter the playoffs with a 0.900 SP and a 2.90 GAA, and it wouldn't matter. The only thing that matters is if Markstrom plays well enough to get the Flames there, and if he plays well enough to get them through. Unlike you, I am still really confident that he can do it.

My question to all of you is, if Marky doesn't turn things around, who does the team turn to for stability in net?

In the incredibly unlikely event that this happens, the team probably doesn't have any choice but to platoon the pair of goalies they have. The fact that this is pretty much the Flames's only option should tell you how confident they are about what they expect to happen.

[I]No team can seriously compete for a Stanley Cup without decent goaltending. There's signs that, perhaps, we might not have it.

Yeah, I don't see it. Things seem overwhelmingly less dire to me than what you have described here.


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[Mathgod]

@Pepsi You're responding at length to every point I make, so it does seem as though you're taking this debate this just as seriously as I am. After all, wasn't it you who prodded me with your "how many old threads are you going to bump?" (showing that you really do care about what I post) comment instead of just letting it go and ignoring it (which is what you would have done if you really didn't care).

Then your "mayyybe it is" comment was clearly you mocking me for saying the opposite thing earlier in the thread.

Then Jiri misinterpreted a comment I made, so I offered a clarification. Then it resulted in a pile-on against me from multiple posters.

A serious, long form debate was never my intent here. But why should I say nothing as people are misinterpreting my comments and trying to make me look as foolish as possible?

You paint me as "taking this all too seriously" and "not responding like a human being" while you're the "down to earth" one with the "chill" attitude about all this. But that's simply not the reailty of the situation.

Let's start this over from the beginning. My position is simply this: the team's goaltending situation isn't looking promising, and while I'd love to be proven wrong about this, it seems more likely than not that the Flames will have significantly inferior goaltending from here on out compared to other teams that have Cup aspirations. If this proves to be the case, it almost certainly means no deep playoff run this year. Disappointing considering the team is in a short win-now window.

Is the only thing to do to shrug and pretend like it's no big deal? Maybe the answer is yes. But in that case I would have to ask what the point of being a fan if winning/losing means so little?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

@Pepsi You're responding at length to every point I make, so it does seem as though you're taking this debate this just as seriously as I am. After all, wasn't it you who prodded me with your "how many old threads are you going to bump?" (showing that you really do care about what I post) comment instead of just letting it go and ignoring it (which is what you would have done if you really didn't care).

Don’t get confused: I don’t care about convincing you. But I enjoy having the conversation and I enjoy the topic. And I respond at length to everything. If you’re following my posts as much as you suggest you are you’d know that I waste tons of time and space! Take it less personally.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Then your "mayyybe it is" comment was clearly you mocking me for saying the opposite thing earlier in the thread.

Then Jiri misinterpreted a comment I made, so I offered a clarification. Then it resulted in a pile-on against me from multiple posters.

I just knew the thread was bumped after every bad goal. So I bumped it after a good game. Had nothing to do with you. The reason people piled on was probably because you thought it was about you and then you made it about you. I don’t know how else to explain to you that you are less of the main character here than you think you are. I didn’t even know it was you who I asked about bumping the thread until you pointed it out.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

A serious, long form debate was never my intent here. But why should I say nothing as people are misinterpreting my comments and trying to make me look as foolish as possible?

Nobody is trying to make you look foolish. Nobody cares whether you look foolish. You don’t have to say nothing, but you could ease off the gas.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

You paint me as "taking this all too seriously" and "not responding like a human being" while you're the "down to earth" one with the "chill" attitude about all this. But that's simply not the reailty of the situation.

It is, though. You’re proving it right now.

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Let's start this over from the beginning. My position is simply this: the team's goaltending situation isn't looking promising, and while I'd love to be proven wrong about this, it seems more likely than not that the Flames will have significantly inferior goaltending from here on out compared to other teams that have Cup aspirations. If this proves to be the case, it almost certainly means no deep playoff run this year. Disappointing considering the team is in a short win-now window.

Is the only thing to do to shrug and pretend like it's no big deal? Maybe the answer is yes. But in that case I would have to ask what the point of being a fan if winning/losing means so little?

The point would be: fun. Enjoying the actual game of hockey for the entertainment that it is. It’s pretty cool.

You say you’d “love to be proven wrong” and maybe you would. I’d rather take the opposite outlook and be disappointed if I was proven wrong. That ok with you if other people see positives in Markstrom’s game and enjoy watching the games? Mind if we watch the season play about instead of moping about missing the playoffs in November? That’s what we’re here for, after all.

[Backstop]

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

My position is simply this: the team's goaltending situation isn't looking promising, and while I'd love to be proven wrong about this, it seems more likely than not that the Flames will have significantly inferior goaltending from here on out compared to other teams that have Cup aspirations. If this proves to be the case, it almost certainly means no deep playoff run this year. Disappointing considering the team is in a short win-now window.

I outright reject the premise. It's November. A million things can happen yet this season, including the perfectly reasonable, predictable return to form for Markstrom. Hell, it looks like he may get there sooner than later.



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[1qqaaz]

I think it's very likely that Markstrom finishes with a save percentage that is better than his current 88.9%. It's a Sutter team.

But it's also very unlikely that Markstrom finishes anywhere near last year's 92.2%. Very few goalies in the league will get this save percentage. It's possible, Wolf has basically done this already (he started of slow but has since rebounded). But Markstrom would have to start playing better very soon.

The same goes for Vladar. He'll finish above his current 88.1%. This isn't a bold prediction.

[Mathgod]

@Pepsi Again it's clear that you're taking this as seriously as anyone here. Otherwise you woudn't be continuing to "waste time and space" as you say. You've accused me of something you're clearly just as guilty of. You're clearly trying to win the argument, otherwise you wouldn't keep replying the way you do. "Maybe you need to find another hobby... etc..."

I'm not "taking things personally" so much as I'm calling out hypocrisy...

I don't know what you mean by "ease off the gas". I happen to be very concerned about the team's goaltending situation, and saying so out loud isn't something that should get people up in arms about. Maybe the word "panic" is what people took exception to. Ok, next time I'll be a bit more careful in my word choice.

Then again, if it really is true that no fan should ever, under any circumstances, panic over anything, why did the OP use the title "Too early to panic about Markstrom"? If "panicking" isn't even a reasonable concept under any circumstances...?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Then again, if it really is true that no fan should ever, under any circumstances, panic over anything, why did the OP use the title "Too early to panic about Markstrom"?

Because he's a sports writer.


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[Mathgod]

That doesn't really answer the question.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

That doesn't really answer the question.

Yes, it does. He needs to make a living, and hyperbole is an effective way to make that happen.

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